I don't often post , lurk in the good something of interest gets said now and again. I'll have to agree with others, LRC has been in my bookmarks for almost 20 years. I personally think this is the greatest thread ever, that has relevant information to the majority of LRC readership . My takeaway from this would be , spoc84 has outlined something that is incredibly simple, yet complex in its absolute narrow accuracy for pace and targets the runner must hit. Spoc, you should consider coaching I think, you have a way of explaining things here that will keep the runner focused and you already have a whole thread semi convinced, maybe more so. So im sure that would rub off. I also agree with something way back in the thread. Does anyone have a podcast or anything they run? Someone should invite spoc or a few of the others involved in this thread. It would be better than 90% of the training talk you hear on these things. They often say you *could* scale this down to a hobby jogger level, but never explain how. Virtually everyone *is* a hobby jogger and this is the perfect guide for them.
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500
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I suspect I'm the runner spoc and others were talking about who hits workouts and easy runs to hard. He mentioned how he's often passed on easy runs by local guys he knows that he beats in local turkey trots. Well, I'm the guy who probably does that. It rang true with me because this comment is me often overtaking a 17 min guy on my easy run when he's on his. I'm a 19 guy, much like where spoc 84 was stagnated at. It's funny, I know this guy I often see on my morning run. He's the only one training that slow on his easy based on following guys on Strava locally, but has also the fastest master in the area. He's doing something like this I think. As he's often doing 6x mile and looking at his data on Strava its like 20 beats at least under his MHR from runs he's uploaded from races. I could never understand what on earth that would accomplish or why he wasn't doing those mile repeats if not all out, much harder. My guess was it looked like about his HM pace or slightly faster. Which I just couldn't understand.
I think the problem is being a workout warrior is so engrained into the sport, weirdly so. Obsessions with 3-5k pace workouts. I hold my hands up I'm as guilty as anyone. If nothing else this thread as made me want to take baby steps to breaking this cycle.
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here we go again wrote:
Yet another thread on Norway training because one guy happens to be dominating at the moment. If u are running sun 70% of HR 4 out of 7 days I can already tell u aren't training hard enough.
Next.
Have you heard of K.Blummenfelt, for a non-Ingebrigtsen example? Fool of a Took.
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sirpoc84 wrote:
data-nerd wrote:
Glad I happened to visit LRC when this thread first popped up and have been following since.
I've been reading more and more lately emphasising the importance of LT-pace training, and taking serious interest in the Bakken/Ingebrigtsen approach. This discussion has generated some great lightbulb moments for me.
The talk of CTL, heart rate zones, maximising time at LT pace etc. has got me wanting to properly monitor changes in my own performance and fatigue metrics. Has anyone got any tips for how to get the most out of tools like Runalyze for this? I think it was sirpoc early on that mentioned he uses it.
Hi data nerd, your username suggests you have come to the correct thread 😂. I think there's quite a few people here who can help with different things, but I can definitely help with this.
I don't use runalyze, but I hugely recommend either Golden Cheetah for the PC version or use intervals icu for mobile (it's browser based, but works fantastic in mobile brave on my android).
This IMO will open things up to what is happening in your training. You'll start to see patterns and understand why you stagnate or when it's time to just do things like I suggested, like time to add on 5 mins here and there to easy runs before you add more reps. Intervals will also give you a visualisation and breakdown each week of your time in zone breakdown. This is hugely valuable. You can customise that breakdown in a number of ways.
I would suggest using time in zone, pace as the main metric, with heart rate as back up and also if you have a reliable and more modern watch, select in the pace settings in intervals icu , gradient adjusted pace.
You can use HR, I don't think it matters too much, you will see slightly different numbers. For me, it evens out (roughly) But the TSS per session seems slightly less for me in the easy runs by HR and slightly more in the workout sessions, than by pace. Overall, I mentioned the other day I have re evaluated the last few hundred runs and basically it ended up the same. Just stick to one though. Once you have picked , just stay with it.
Obviously pace isn't as good as a power meter in cycling, which is the ultimate tool , but I can still use the PMC (it's under the fitness tab in intervals, but the same thing) to index my current fitness) roughly to my training load. The main takeaway in basic terms for me, I could only make it to maybe around a CTL (FITNESS score in intervals icu) of 50, training a more traditional running approach, on around 6.5-7 hours a week. It was only as I started to train like this for the same hours, which made my CTL increase, for no more hours. So obviously I could experiment with how to push the envelope and understand why I have gotten faster.
You mention fatigue, FWIW, the fatigue/tsb score in general I've found quite accurate over the years. I once was cycling and really felt terrible from a training block, had a TSB of like -50. Over the years in cycling it gave me a pretty good idea of where I was at. I could train hard still on about -15 to -20 ish. So for me it was a good metric to use, as again I could index that score and use it for patterns over time. It was as good as telling me when I needed a break as my body. My issue was always I didn't want to believe my body, I was weak and could just push through. The numbers reigned me in. One more thing, training like this for running, you don't need to worry about this too much. I've never accumulated a fatigue score over -10, in intervals icu. That's primarily because this is so controlled, it's basically the same thing every week or at worst ramp it up a tiny bit. Cycling is a bit more variable, you might do some crazy 7 hours ride , it feels easy, but actually that load is huge under the hood and has trashed you in retrospect, more than your body initially tells you. You'd probably find this to be the case in running. That I could easy go out and run 75% of MHR for my long run, it might feel OK as an individual run in isolation, but actually if that becomes the easy standard over time, it will then grind you down (not horrifically I guess) but more than you realise.
Just make sure you are 100% sure you know your threshold pace to begin with and that you know your LTHR. Also, keep those updated the second you clearly know you have improved, through a face or time trial or whatever you benchmarks are likely to be.
Right, I was going to also post and bore everyone with what happened yesterday , as I got my wallet, bought some more lactate strips . Can't believe how expensive they have gotten 😭😂😂.
What was the damage for the strips? and where’d you get them from? Assuming you got Lactate Pro?
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unbelief wrote:
What was the damage for the strips? and where’d you get them from? Assuming you got Lactate Pro?
£42 for a box of 25 HaB a UK based website. It's not mine, but I have easy access to a friends Lactate 2 pro who works in a science department in education. Long term the cost just isn't viable me to always continue to test, but I just made a really big leap in performance this weekend that I want to test the new paces I've estimated in proportion to my 10k time, that I'm still in the right ballpark. I wasn't going to, but I figured I'm invested in this thread as well myself at this point that I would cough up for another box and test on first , middle and last reps of 10x1k, 6x1600m ( did this distance yesterday) and 5x2k. Maybe run this through twice in the next couple of weeks and do one lot in 25x400 and test that. That'll be this box of strips done. Then if I'm happy just stick to the pace ranges for a while with confidence. Obviously it won't be perfect, some days these paces might do say 2.5 mmol and some days 3mmol and I won't know exactly which one it is (just to use a random example)- maybe not that precise for a pro. But good enough for me that I'm within 98% confidence I'm somewhere under LT2 and in the desired range to keep pushing that threshold from below , which ultimately I believe will keep me progressing.
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Someone earlier mentioned renting a lactate meter - is that actually possible anywhere (US) ?
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sans-culottes wrote:
Someone earlier mentioned renting a lactate meter - is that actually possible anywhere (US) ?
You definitely can in the UK, a company called edge performance science (might be worth asking them if they would send to US?), as initially I was going to do that through them. By chance I just happened to ask my friend who works in the science industry in education if it was worth buying one and he had two lactate pros in a box in a lab that had never been used.
I'd be surprised if there's isn't somewhere stateside you can rent from, as it's relatively common now to at least experiment with from sub elites upwards, across a range of sports.
This post was edited 46 seconds after it was posted.272 -
sirpoc84 wrote:
unbelief wrote:
What was the damage for the strips? and where’d you get them from? Assuming you got Lactate Pro?
£42 for a box of 25 HaB a UK based website. It's not mine, but I have easy access to a friends Lactate 2 pro who works in a science department in education. Long term the cost just isn't viable me to always continue to test, but I just made a really big leap in performance this weekend that I want to test the new paces I've estimated in proportion to my 10k time, that I'm still in the right ballpark. I wasn't going to, but I figured I'm invested in this thread as well myself at this point that I would cough up for another box and test on first , middle and last reps of 10x1k, 6x1600m ( did this distance yesterday) and 5x2k. Maybe run this through twice in the next couple of weeks and do one lot in 25x400 and test that. That'll be this box of strips done. Then if I'm happy just stick to the pace ranges for a while with confidence. Obviously it won't be perfect, some days these paces might do say 2.5 mmol and some days 3mmol and I won't know exactly which one it is (just to use a random example)- maybe not that precise for a pro. But good enough for me that I'm within 98% confidence I'm somewhere under LT2 and in the desired range to keep pushing that threshold from below , which ultimately I believe will keep me progressing.
That was just the company i was going to recommend you get them from!
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I know $500-700 is a lot for a lot of people, but that’s how much you can spend on a lactate plus, control solution, and enough strips to learn how to test yourself. It’s a priceless experience, in my opinion.
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HaB a great company!
Lactate testing is like organized crime -- just when you thought you were out!
Let us know some of your data. would be very instructive for many im sure, especially for those interested in going to that step.
Lactate testing is an extra expense, for sure, but people will buy 10 pairs of Vaporflys no problem. Especially in the states, $500 will get you going on Lactate no problem. Then it's mostly just spot testing any ways.
The ramp tests are mostly for labs to grab your money and plot you a pretty curve. The curve is nice to have, for sure, but repeated field testing gives you way more reliable information, especially when you are doing similar/same workouts week in week out.
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Itestlactate wrote:
I know $500-700 is a lot for a lot of people, but that’s how much you can spend on a lactate plus, control solution, and enough strips to learn how to test yourself. It’s a priceless experience, in my opinion.
If someone( I guess most runners here) can`t afford lactate measuring equipment like this it`s very easy to outgo from Daniels VDOT and find correct threshold pace to outgo from. Then there is just a need to calibrate `exact`individual best threshold pace out from that pace with the help from time of rest needed between the threshold interval reps . As a good example running e.g 8-15 x 1000m at perfect threshold pace shouldn`t need more than 60 sec rest. If need for more rest the pace is too fast.
-The Magic Coach of LRC-
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unbelief wrote:
What was the damage for the strips? and where’d you get them from? Assuming you got Lactate Pro?
I offered you guys a calculation in %CV to replace the lactate measurement (or save some costs), but got downvoted for that. Not my problem!
Some people here are in a clubs. What if you buy one for a club or community and everyone can rent it? Easy.
In Europe the Lactate Pro 2 is available around 350.- Eur not too much in my opinion for a medical device. The stripes are about 2Eur.- No calibration needed for that device.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.531 -
Another aspect of this is that many don`t like to take blood samples ( like me :) ) and this way by practical knowing how to handle perfect threshold training the runner doesn`t have to take blood samples.
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thread hit a nerve with me wrote:
I suspect I'm the runner spoc and others were talking about who hits workouts and easy runs to hard. He mentioned how he's often passed on easy runs by local guys he knows that he beats in local turkey trots. Wele.
And what is his volume compared to those faster runners? The reality is few people are focused on running their fastest 5k. They have 3-4 hours/week to spend running and they do it in the way they enjoy. Few people running 19mins are serious enough to be doing repeat miles..
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M-A-G-I-C ! wrote:
If someone( I guess most runners here) can`t afford lactate measuring equipment like this it`s very easy to outgo from Daniels VDOT and find correct threshold pace to outgo from. Then there is just a need to calibrate `exact`individual best threshold pace out from that pace with the help from time of rest needed between the threshold interval reps . As a good example running e.g 8-15 x 1000m at perfect threshold pace shouldn`t need more than 60 sec rest. If need for more rest the pace is too fast.
-The Magic Coach of LRC-
You clearly haven't read the thread VDOT will not help. Threshold is a state, not a pace. Spoc clearly has shown he is running threshold state, but the pace is different depending on the length of the rep and the short rest. Why don't you actually open your mind up and contribute based on you could learn something new, like the rest of us?
I understand what you are saying. Maybe you could work with spoc over time and see as his paces increase relative to his training and pbs, the % of CV is staying the same. As he's not specifically picking a % of it to run, he's just doing whatever gets him, to just below lactate state. It would be interesting to see how those two things come together. It would or could be a good guide rather than just saying "15k pace". As realistically most are not going to be ever using a lactate meter. This is a wonderful thread though. And spoc and others than you so much for sharing your experiences. It's very nice to see ideas coming across from other sports and working.332 -
The suggestion for working with spoc and trying to maybe standardise paces to CV was for lexel
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coach js is dumb wrote:
M-A-G-I-C ! wrote:
If someone( I guess most runners here) can`t afford lactate measuring equipment like this it`s very easy to outgo from Daniels VDOT and find correct threshold pace to outgo from. Then there is just a need to calibrate `exact`individual best threshold pace out from that pace with the help from time of rest needed between the threshold interval reps . As a good example running e.g 8-15 x 1000m at perfect threshold pace shouldn`t need more than 60 sec rest. If need for more rest the pace is too fast.
-The Magic Coach of LRC-
You clearly haven't read the thread VDOT will not help. Threshold is a state, not a pace. Spoc clearly has shown he is running threshold state, but the pace is different depending on the length of the rep and the short rest. Why don't you actually open your mind up and contribute based on you could learn something new, like the rest of us?
I understand what you are saying. Maybe you could work with spoc over time and see as his paces increase relative to his training and pbs, the % of CV is staying the same. As he's not specifically picking a % of it to run, he's just doing whatever gets him, to just below lactate state. It would be interesting to see how those two things come together. It would or could be a good guide rather than just saying "15k pace". As realistically most are not going to be ever using a lactate meter. This is a wonderful thread though. And spoc and others than you so much for sharing your experiences. It's very nice to see ideas coming across from other sports and working.Well, I don´t care what most amateurs here proposes after I have coached several hundreds of runners at all levels over the world and all improved in the way I told.And I just gave an example of max rest when running threshold 1000s . You can call me dumb, but what I give here is always experienced knowledge out from reading thousands of scientific studies and practised running over 50 years , partly at national elite level, and now been an online coach for eight years.Try to learn , perfect threshold training is a pace but individual .
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lexel wrote:
data-nerd wrote:
The talk of CTL, heart rate zones, maximising time at LT pace etc. has got me wanting to properly monitor changes in my own performance and fatigue metrics.
Still a good track of your progress are time trials. Real performances. If you do that at different durations/distances you get a duration to speed profile.
I am running a 1/2 on Sunday and I can use that real-time data (JD or Tinman's calculators) to see equivalencies. I know we aren't using CV pace but even the threshold pace, based on my true HM race time, will then be the starting baseline for the training shirtboy and sirpoc84 have referenced here. I also thought about using the 30-minute TT to find LTHR.
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sirpoc84 wrote:
data-nerd wrote:
Glad I happened to visit LRC when this thread first popped up and have been following since.
I've been reading more and more lately emphasising the importance of LT-pace training, and taking serious interest in the Bakken/Ingebrigtsen approach. This discussion has generated some great lightbulb moments for me.
The talk of CTL, heart rate zones, maximising time at LT pace etc. has got me wanting to properly monitor changes in my own performance and fatigue metrics. Has anyone got any tips for how to get the most out of tools like Runalyze for this? I think it was sirpoc early on that mentioned he uses it.
Hi data nerd, your username suggests you have come to the correct thread 😂. I think there's quite a few people here who can help with different things, but I can definitely help with this.
I don't use runalyze, but I hugely recommend either Golden Cheetah for the PC version or use intervals icu for mobile (it's browser based, but works fantastic in mobile brave on my android).
This IMO will open things up to what is happening in your training. You'll start to see patterns and understand why you stagnate or when it's time to just do things like I suggested, like time to add on 5 mins here and there to easy runs before you add more reps. Intervals will also give you a visualisation and breakdown each week of your time in zone breakdown. This is hugely valuable. You can customise that breakdown in a number of ways.
I would suggest using time in zone, pace as the main metric, with heart rate as back up and also if you have a reliable and more modern watch, select in the pace settings in intervals icu , gradient adjusted pace.
You can use HR, I don't think it matters too much, you will see slightly different numbers. For me, it evens out (roughly) But the TSS per session seems slightly less for me in the easy runs by HR and slightly more in the workout sessions, than by pace. Overall, I mentioned the other day I have re evaluated the last few hundred runs and basically it ended up the same. Just stick to one though. Once you have picked , just stay with it.
Obviously pace isn't as good as a power meter in cycling, which is the ultimate tool , but I can still use the PMC (it's under the fitness tab in intervals, but the same thing) to index my current fitness) roughly to my training load. The main takeaway in basic terms for me, I could only make it to maybe around a CTL (FITNESS score in intervals icu) of 50, training a more traditional running approach, on around 6.5-7 hours a week. It was only as I started to train like this for the same hours, which made my CTL increase, for no more hours. So obviously I could experiment with how to push the envelope and understand why I have gotten faster.
You mention fatigue, FWIW, the fatigue/tsb score in general I've found quite accurate over the years. I once was cycling and really felt terrible from a training block, had a TSB of like -50. Over the years in cycling it gave me a pretty good idea of where I was at. I could train hard still on about -15 to -20 ish. So for me it was a good metric to use, as again I could index that score and use it for patterns over time. It was as good as telling me when I needed a break as my body. My issue was always I didn't want to believe my body, I was weak and could just push through. The numbers reigned me in. One more thing, training like this for running, you don't need to worry about this too much. I've never accumulated a fatigue score over -10, in intervals icu. That's primarily because this is so controlled, it's basically the same thing every week or at worst ramp it up a tiny bit. Cycling is a bit more variable, you might do some crazy 7 hours ride , it feels easy, but actually that load is huge under the hood and has trashed you in retrospect, more than your body initially tells you. You'd probably find this to be the case in running. That I could easy go out and run 75% of MHR for my long run, it might feel OK as an individual run in isolation, but actually if that becomes the easy standard over time, it will then grind you down (not horrifically I guess) but more than you realise.
Just make sure you are 100% sure you know your threshold pace to begin with and that you know your LTHR. Also, keep those updated the second you clearly know you have improved, through a face or time trial or whatever you benchmarks are likely to be.
Right, I was going to also post and bore everyone with what happened yesterday , as I got my wallet, bought some more lactate strips . Can't believe how expensive they have gotten 😭😂😂.
Actually after re-reading this, is it smarter to use the HM as a TT to gauge baseline, or run it, rest for a few days, then do the 30-minute LTHR test to then derive the threshold paces and such to start training with (adjusted for MP efforts, rather than 1500-5k)?
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sirpoc84 wrote:
data-nerd wrote:
Glad I happened to visit LRC when this thread first popped up and have been following since.
I've been reading more and more lately emphasising the importance of LT-pace training, and taking serious interest in the Bakken/Ingebrigtsen approach. This discussion has generated some great lightbulb moments for me.
The talk of CTL, heart rate zones, maximising time at LT pace etc. has got me wanting to properly monitor changes in my own performance and fatigue metrics. Has anyone got any tips for how to get the most out of tools like Runalyze for this? I think it was sirpoc early on that mentioned he uses it.
Hi data nerd, your username suggests you have come to the correct thread 😂. I think there's quite a few people here who can help with different things, but I can definitely help with this.
I don't use runalyze, but I hugely recommend either Golden Cheetah for the PC version or use intervals icu for mobile (it's browser based, but works fantastic in mobile brave on my android).
This IMO will open things up to what is happening in your training. You'll start to see patterns and understand why you stagnate or when it's time to just do things like I suggested, like time to add on 5 mins here and there to easy runs before you add more reps. Intervals will also give you a visualisation and breakdown each week of your time in zone breakdown. This is hugely valuable. You can customise that breakdown in a number of ways.
I would suggest using time in zone, pace as the main metric, with heart rate as back up and also if you have a reliable and more modern watch, select in the pace settings in intervals icu , gradient adjusted pace.
You can use HR, I don't think it matters too much, you will see slightly different numbers. For me, it evens out (roughly) But the TSS per session seems slightly less for me in the easy runs by HR and slightly more in the workout sessions, than by pace. Overall, I mentioned the other day I have re evaluated the last few hundred runs and basically it ended up the same. Just stick to one though. Once you have picked , just stay with it.
Obviously pace isn't as good as a power meter in cycling, which is the ultimate tool , but I can still use the PMC (it's under the fitness tab in intervals, but the same thing) to index my current fitness) roughly to my training load. The main takeaway in basic terms for me, I could only make it to maybe around a CTL (FITNESS score in intervals icu) of 50, training a more traditional running approach, on around 6.5-7 hours a week. It was only as I started to train like this for the same hours, which made my CTL increase, for no more hours. So obviously I could experiment with how to push the envelope and understand why I have gotten faster.
You mention fatigue, FWIW, the fatigue/tsb score in general I've found quite accurate over the years. I once was cycling and really felt terrible from a training block, had a TSB of like -50. Over the years in cycling it gave me a pretty good idea of where I was at. I could train hard still on about -15 to -20 ish. So for me it was a good metric to use, as again I could index that score and use it for patterns over time. It was as good as telling me when I needed a break as my body. My issue was always I didn't want to believe my body, I was weak and could just push through. The numbers reigned me in. One more thing, training like this for running, you don't need to worry about this too much. I've never accumulated a fatigue score over -10, in intervals icu. That's primarily because this is so controlled, it's basically the same thing every week or at worst ramp it up a tiny bit. Cycling is a bit more variable, you might do some crazy 7 hours ride , it feels easy, but actually that load is huge under the hood and has trashed you in retrospect, more than your body initially tells you. You'd probably find this to be the case in running. That I could easy go out and run 75% of MHR for my long run, it might feel OK as an individual run in isolation, but actually if that becomes the easy standard over time, it will then grind you down (not horrifically I guess) but more than you realise.
Just make sure you are 100% sure you know your threshold pace to begin with and that you know your LTHR. Also, keep those updated the second you clearly know you have improved, through a face or time trial or whatever you benchmarks are likely to be.
Right, I was going to also post and bore everyone with what happened yesterday , as I got my wallet, bought some more lactate strips . Can't believe how expensive they have gotten 😭😂😂.
Delete the double post? I am not sure how it posted twice.
This post was edited 37 seconds after it was posted.20
