I always thought Abby Wambach might be DSD. Is that not racist enough for you?
But Abby Wambach , who retired as a player in 2015, competed in women's soccer during the era when FIFA policy required all member football/soccer associations to verify the sex of their own players in the women's division. The previous rules, which FIFA announced in October 2019 were no longer in force, also allowed others who had legitimate reason to raise formal challenges about the sex of a player in women's competition - and required that athletes whose sex was questioned on seemingly valid grounds undergo medical investigation under the purview of FIFA's medical director(s).
So whilst Abby Wambach might indeed have a DSD, it would have to be a disorder of female sex development such as classic CAH, late-onset CAH or MRKH - not a disorder of male sex development like AIS, the disorder of male sex development that Dutee Chand has, or XY 5-ARD, the DMSD that Caster Semenya has.
The contentious issue in women's sports is not about the inclusion of athletes with female genetics and female gonads (ovaries) who have disorders or differences of female sex development. Everyone agrees female DSD athletes belong in women's and girls sports like all other female people do.
The contentious issue in women's sport is solely about the inclusion of athletes with male genetics and male gonads (testes) who have disorders or differences of male sex development due to medical conditions that either a) only occur in males (like AIS does), or b) occur in both sexes but only affect the sex development of males (like Semenya's enzyme deficiency 5-ARD does).
Moreover, the contentious issue about "DSD athletes" in women's sports is really only about XY athletes with of a small number of specifically male disorders of sex development which cause the affected athletes to be able to physically respond to, and use, the huge amount of testosterone their testes pump out in the ways that males typically do.
In other words, the "DSD athletes" who are a bone of contention in women's sports are solely those who have testes that pump out male levels of testosterone AND who have working male androgen receptors which caused them to go through, and benefit from, the male mini puberty of infancy and the longer male puberty of adolescence. During these crucial stages of development, these athletes all acquired the male-typical physical features - such as larger and more powerful heart and lungs, denser bones, male muscle tissue and metabolism, male ability to build and retain muscle much more easily, male hemoglobin levels, male pelvis shape, etc - that collectively give males such enormous advantages over females in most sports.
Barbra Banda and the 9 other athletes that the CAF has declared ineligible for the African Women's Cup of Nations this month all appear to have begun playing elite international women's soccer in the few years since FIFA abandoned the sex-testing rules that were in place during the time when Abby Wambach played elite women's soccer.
They really did not do much in the way of gender verification back then (as evidence by the fact that the only players I can find that were disciplined were 7 non-DSD men on the Iranian team). For Wambach to have been randomly selected at the 2015 world cup (where she mostly played a reserve role and had one goal), is unlikely. She was likely never tested and allowed to drift off into the sunset by the governing bodies (otherwise, it would have thrown all of her records and the integrity of women's soccer into a spiral at a time when they were trying to increase interest in the sport). Governing bodies in sport have covered for far worse. The breadth of the DSD issue in sports like soccer is likely far more extensive than is understood.
But Abby Wambach , who retired as a player in 2015, competed in women's soccer during the era when FIFA policy required all member football/soccer associations to verify the sex of their own players in the women's division. The previous rules, which FIFA announced in October 2019 were no longer in force, also allowed others who had legitimate reason to raise formal challenges about the sex of a player in women's competition - and required that athletes whose sex was questioned on seemingly valid grounds undergo medical investigation under the purview of FIFA's medical director(s).
So whilst Abby Wambach might indeed have a DSD, it would have to be a disorder of female sex development such as classic CAH, late-onset CAH or MRKH - not a disorder of male sex development like AIS, the disorder of male sex development that Dutee Chand has, or XY 5-ARD, the DMSD that Caster Semenya has.
The contentious issue in women's sports is not about the inclusion of athletes with female genetics and female gonads (ovaries) who have disorders or differences of female sex development. Everyone agrees female DSD athletes belong in women's and girls sports like all other female people do.
The contentious issue in women's sport is solely about the inclusion of athletes with male genetics and male gonads (testes) who have disorders or differences of male sex development due to medical conditions that either a) only occur in males (like AIS does), or b) occur in both sexes but only affect the sex development of males (like Semenya's enzyme deficiency 5-ARD does).
Moreover, the contentious issue about "DSD athletes" in women's sports is really only about XY athletes with of a small number of specifically male disorders of sex development which cause the affected athletes to be able to physically respond to, and use, the huge amount of testosterone their testes pump out in the ways that males typically do.
In other words, the "DSD athletes" who are a bone of contention in women's sports are solely those who have testes that pump out male levels of testosterone AND who have working male androgen receptors which caused them to go through, and benefit from, the male mini puberty of infancy and the longer male puberty of adolescence. During these crucial stages of development, these athletes all acquired the male-typical physical features - such as larger and more powerful heart and lungs, denser bones, male muscle tissue and metabolism, male ability to build and retain muscle much more easily, male hemoglobin levels, male pelvis shape, etc - that collectively give males such enormous advantages over females in most sports.
Barbra Banda and the 9 other athletes that the CAF has declared ineligible for the African Women's Cup of Nations this month all appear to have begun playing elite international women's soccer in the few years since FIFA abandoned the sex-testing rules that were in place during the time when Abby Wambach played elite women's soccer.
They really did not do much in the way of gender verification back then (as evidence by the fact that the only players I can find that were disciplined were 7 non-DSD men on the Iranian team). For Wambach to have been randomly selected at the 2015 world cup (where she mostly played a reserve role and had one goal), is unlikely. She was likely never tested and allowed to drift off into the sunset by the governing bodies (otherwise, it would have thrown all of her records and the integrity of women's soccer into a spiral at a time when they were trying to increase interest in the sport). Governing bodies in sport have covered for far worse. The breadth of the DSD issue in sports like soccer is likely far more extensive than is understood.
Since she was born to middle-class parents in the USA in 1980 and grew up in a suburb of Rochester NY, Abby Wambach would have gotten "well child" medical checkups at regular intervals in infancy, childhood and adolescence. She also would have had to get the standard kind of medical checkup and clearance from a HCP that in the US is required for all kids who play school sports both in public schools and the kind of parochial school she went to as a kid. For students who do school sports in middle school and HS in the US, those medical exams and clearance forms are required to be repeated at least annually. So if Wambach was born with a condition that affected sex development during gestation in utero, it most certainly would have been detected and diagnosed when she was growing up.
Similarly, if Wambach for some reason never started having periods in adolescence, that would been cause for her to get medical investigation as to why.
Since female puberty and even menstruation can start as early as age 8, HCPs in the US who do pediatrics customarily start looking for the signs of puberty in female children from age 7-8 on, and medical checkups of girls routinely involve inquires about periods starting in the tweens too. Most girls in the US get their periods between 11 and 13, average age 12. If a girl reaches 14 or 15 without starting her periods, she, her family and family HCP will be concerned and will very much want to know why - so she will be sent to a gynecologist for a standard gynecological exam and workup.
Also, in the US even girls who get their periods as expected by age 13 typically start seeing a gynecologist by or in their mid-teens. The American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists long has recommended that girls have their first gynecologic visit between ages 13 and 15. I dunno what sex or how old you are, but when I was a teenager many decades ago, all the girls I knew had visited a gynecologist and gotten a gynecological exam by the time we were 16. Some of us had to get a gynecological exam when were much younger and had pelvic pain but appendicitis had been ruled out.
A standard gynecological exam aka a "full pelvic" is very thorough and invasive. The external genitals are carefully examined and palpated, and swabbed for cells and secretions if necessary, then a speculum is placed in the vagina so the HCP can check and palpate all the internal organs of the female reproductive tract: vagina, cervix, uterus, Fallopian tubes and ovaries. If the patient is 21 or over, cells will be taken from her cervix for a Pap test. An ultrasound of the internal repro organs using a vaginal wand is commonly done too. The HCP often will do a probe of the rectum as well, simultaneously pressing inside the vagina and then palpating the ovaries, so as to detect growths and irregularities on the underside or back side of those organs.
There's very little chance a disorder of female sex development could ever be missed in a standard gynecological exam - and there's absolutely no way on earth ever that a gynecologist doing a standard gyn exam on a teenage or young adult patient would not catch on - and catch on very quickly - if the patient was male with a disorder of male sex development.
This is why in the famous court cases of athletes with disorders of male sex development like Maria Jose Martinez Patino, Dutee Chand and Caster Semenya, none of the athletes challenged the findings of the doctors who performed physical examinations of their genitals and internal organs. These athletes said it was a violation of their human rights that they had to undergo physical exams at all - a claim that a a lot of women took as tip-off that these athletes definitely weren't female, coz females are used to invasive probing as standard parts of our health care - and Martinez Patino challenged the accuracy and reliability of the sex chromosome testing used by the IAAF and IOC in the 1980s. But none of these athletes challenged the findings and conclusions that the physicians who examined their genitals and internal organs came to about their sex and medical situation. Instead, the athletes all challenged the notion of whether it was fair to exclude them from women's sport for having testes and being born with disorders of male sex development that they did not choose to have - and which they all claimed they went their whole lives totally unaware of until they were finally subjected to sex testing for sports purposes after reaching adulthood.
But Abby Wambach , who retired as a player in 2015, competed in women's soccer during the era when FIFA policy required all member football/soccer associations to verify the sex of their own players in the women's division.
Barbra Banda and the 9 other athletes that the CAF has declared ineligible for the African Women's Cup of Nations this month all appear to have begun playing elite international women's soccer in the few years since FIFA abandoned the sex-testing rules that were in place during the time when Abby Wambach played elite women's soccer.
They really did not do much in the way of gender verification back then (as evidence by the fact that the only players I can find that were disciplined were 7 non-DSD men on the Iranian team). For Wambach to have been randomly selected at the 2015 world cup (where she mostly played a reserve role and had one goal), is unlikely. She was likely never tested and allowed to drift off into the sunset by the governing bodies (otherwise, it would have thrown all of her records and the integrity of women's soccer into a spiral at a time when they were trying to increase interest in the sport). Governing bodies in sport have covered for far worse. The breadth of the DSD issue in sports like soccer is likely far more extensive than is understood.
I don't know what you mean by "back then," but in 2015 ALL football associations fielding teams for the women's 2015 World Cup had to submit documentation saying ALL the players on their women's squads (not just the first string or players who actually partook in WC competition) had been medically checked to verify they're female. The FIFA policy in place from 2011 to 2019 spoke of "gender verification," but it was really a sex verification policy. From a 2015 press story:
England women’s football team have had to undergo gender testing to prove they are female before being allowed to play in the World Cup next month.
FIFA have insisted that mandatory tests are carried out by team doctors for each country to prove they are eligible to play in the tournament, a process which has come under fire from anti-discrimination campaigners.
World football’s governing body have briefed each national team’s doctor on what tests arerequired to have been completed and documented before they are able to sign a ‘declaration of gender verification.’
The German Football Association obtained the latest gynaecology reports from each of their player’s doctors. Germany’s national team manager Doris Fitschen said: ‘FIFA will have their reasons. We have left the testing and are glad to be able to confirm: Our players are all female sex.’
As the statement from the German Football Association illustrates, the national FAs (and other similar bodies pertaining to other sports) of most countries shouldn't have any difficulty obtaining or providing medical documentation verifying the sex of current and up-and-coming players on their elite women's and junior girls' squads because it's long been the case that all elite athletes are supposed to get, and do get, regular checkups and care from competent medical professionals - and for teenage girls and women, seeing a gynecologist and getting a "full pelvic" exam is part and parcel of basic, routine medical care.
Also, since the menstruation-ovulation cycle has a huge impact on female athletes' sports performance, training regimens, emotional wellbeing, dietary needs, sleep patterns, susceptibility to injury, etc.; since menstrual periods themselves are an important gauge of female health and fitness for sports; and since unwanted pregnancy and contraception are major and often extremely worrying concerns for girls and women who engage in heterosexual intercourse - female athletes customarily keep careful of track their periods/cycles.
In fact, nearly all girls and women "of childbearing age" pay careful attention to where we are in our cycles and are keenly aware of irregularities in the timing and nature of our periods, even when we are not athletes. This was the case when Abby Wambach was growing up and playing elite women's soccer - and it was the case long, long before the invention of smart phones and period-tracking apps, too. Early humans used to make score marks on stones in numerical patterns which suggest they were engaging in prehistoric period tracking.
Would she think the same thing if she lost to a team where a transgender dominated?
1) She might. Have you asked?
2) It's not apparent from the misquote in the thread title, but she was speaking specifically about high school sports: "I’m sorry, your kid’s high school volleyball team just isn’t that important." I assume there was an agenda from the misquote, which appears in many (typically critical) articles online. Rapinoe's views, like most people's, might be nuanced enough to consider that there's a difference between high school and professional sports, evidenced by the fact that she said "high school" in the quote.
Would she think the same thing if she lost to a team where a transgender dominated?
1) She might. Have you asked?
2) It's not apparent from the misquote in the thread title, but she was speaking specifically about high school sports: "I’m sorry, your kid’s high school volleyball team just isn’t that important." I assume there was an agenda from the misquote, which appears in many (typically critical) articles online. Rapinoe's views, like most people's, might be nuanced enough to consider that there's a difference between high school and professional sports, evidenced by the fact that she said "high school" in the quote.
Rapinoe feels that way about HS sports because she has played at college and pro levels. For her, HS sports were not as serious as college or pro sports. For those who never play beyond high school, the state championships are their FIFA World Cup. For a girl who never gets to play on the varsity team, her JV game is the World Cup.
That's why every HS athlete should demand random drug test for every single athlete. It must be easier because USADA knows those kids are at school during the academic year.
To be fair, she's not wrong (entire quote): “We’re talking about people’s lives. I’m sorry, your kid’s high school volleyball team just isn’t that important. It’s not more important than any one kid’s life.”
You can debate whether her underlying assumptions are true (that inclusivity prevents deaths, which seems a reasonable position), but if you're arguing that the purity of a high school sport is more important than someone's life, I've got to disagree.
Though she goes off the rails with this one, so if it's one of her core assumptions, she has a problem: "Show me the evidence that trans women are taking everyone’s scholarships, are dominating in every sport, are winning every title. I’m sorry, it’s just not happening." She's putting a lot of weight on "everyone's" and "every," and that's some pretty weak sauce.
This is another classic dodge among trans activists: "you're literally killing them if you don't let them on the team!" This is a revision of the general argument that if you don't affirm their gender, they will 100% commit suicide.
And it is quite like the argument that if direct abortion is not legal, women will procure illegal abortions that will kill them (and not only the intended unborn target).
“Absolutely,’ Rapinoe told Time when asked if she’d welcome a biological man onto the women’s national team. “‘You’re taking a ‘real’ woman’s place,’ that’s the part of the argument that’s still extremely transphobic. I see trans women as real women. What you’re saying automatically in the argument—you’re sort of telling on yourself already—is you don’t believe these people are women. Therefore, they’re taking the other spot. I don’t feel that way.”
“Absolutely,’ Rapinoe told Time when asked if she’d welcome a biological man onto the women’s national team. “‘You’re taking a ‘real’ woman’s place,’ that’s the part of the argument that’s still extremely transphobic. I see trans women as real women. What you’re saying automatically in the argument—you’re sort of telling on yourself already—is you don’t believe these people are women. Therefore, they’re taking the other spot. I don’t feel that way.”
Where’s the lie? Are you upset that she pretty much exposed the flaw in the anti-trans argument so succinctly?
“Absolutely,’ Rapinoe told Time when asked if she’d welcome a biological man onto the women’s national team. “‘You’re taking a ‘real’ woman’s place,’ that’s the part of the argument that’s still extremely transphobic. I see trans women as real women. What you’re saying automatically in the argument—you’re sort of telling on yourself already—is you don’t believe these people are women. Therefore, they’re taking the other spot. I don’t feel that way.”
Where’s the lie? Are you upset that she pretty much exposed the flaw in the anti-trans argument so succinctly?
The flawed argument is Rapinoe's, when she says she sees transwomen as real women. That's how she sees them, but that's not what they are.
they all say that publicly because it's the politically correct thing to say and it gives them the woke validation they want, but I guarantee you if Megan was playing for Team USA and got replaced in the lineup for a trans she would sue.
People should compete as their gender identity, not sex. If you are a 6'5" guy that can bench 400 and you identify as a woman you are a 2oman and should compete as such.
They really did not do much in the way of gender verification back then (as evidence by the fact that the only players I can find that were disciplined were 7 non-DSD men on the Iranian team). For Wambach to have been randomly selected at the 2015 world cup (where she mostly played a reserve role and had one goal), is unlikely. She was likely never tested and allowed to drift off into the sunset by the governing bodies (otherwise, it would have thrown all of her records and the integrity of women's soccer into a spiral at a time when they were trying to increase interest in the sport). Governing bodies in sport have covered for far worse. The breadth of the DSD issue in sports like soccer is likely far more extensive than is understood.
I don't know what you mean by "back then," but in 2015 ALL football associations fielding teams for the women's 2015 World Cup had to submit documentation saying ALL the players on their women's squads (not just the first string or players who actually partook in WC competition) had been medically checked to verify they're female. The FIFA policy in place from 2011 to 2019 spoke of "gender verification," but it was really a sex verification policy. From a 2015 press story:
England women’s football team have had to undergo gender testing to prove they are female before being allowed to play in the World Cup next month.
FIFA have insisted that mandatory tests are carried out by team doctors for each country to prove they are eligible to play in the tournament, a process which has come under fire from anti-discrimination campaigners.
World football’s governing body have briefed each national team’s doctor on what tests arerequired to have been completed and documented before they are able to sign a ‘declaration of gender verification.’
The German Football Association obtained the latest gynaecology reports from each of their player’s doctors. Germany’s national team manager Doris Fitschen said: ‘FIFA will have their reasons. We have left the testing and are glad to be able to confirm: Our players are all female sex.’
As the statement from the German Football Association illustrates, the national FAs (and other similar bodies pertaining to other sports) of most countries shouldn't have any difficulty obtaining or providing medical documentation verifying the sex of current and up-and-coming players on their elite women's and junior girls' squads because it's long been the case that all elite athletes are supposed to get, and do get, regular checkups and care from competent medical professionals - and for teenage girls and women, seeing a gynecologist and getting a "full pelvic" exam is part and parcel of basic, routine medical care.
Also, since the menstruation-ovulation cycle has a huge impact on female athletes' sports performance, training regimens, emotional wellbeing, dietary needs, sleep patterns, susceptibility to injury, etc.; since menstrual periods themselves are an important gauge of female health and fitness for sports; and since unwanted pregnancy and contraception are major and often extremely worrying concerns for girls and women who engage in heterosexual intercourse - female athletes customarily keep careful of track their periods/cycles.
In fact, nearly all girls and women "of childbearing age" pay careful attention to where we are in our cycles and are keenly aware of irregularities in the timing and nature of our periods, even when we are not athletes. This was the case when Abby Wambach was growing up and playing elite women's soccer - and it was the case long, long before the invention of smart phones and period-tracking apps, too. Early humans used to make score marks on stones in numerical patterns which suggest they were engaging in prehistoric period tracking.
Anyone is the gender they say they are. This "verification" is inhumane and should be considered a crime against humanity.
Excellent athlete, regularly has absurd unintelligible opinions. We see this a lot in men's football and many other sports, nothing new.
I'm crazy about most American sports. I have never heard of anything worse than the title of this thread. If Rapinoe said that then she is worse than Adolf Hitler.
