George Floyd / Chauvin trial starts monday

We are still arguing if we should give violent high school dropouts indiscriminate power to kill?

runnerboy70 wrote:

Knee on neck is a procedure that is taught to restrain someone. Sometimes these drug addled idiots smash their heads on the ground, Chauvin was not out of line.

Where is it taught to continue to kneel on a person’s neck for minutes after they’ve become unconscious? Because many of us are adamant that is out of line and needs to change.

fasciz wrote:

runnerboy70 wrote:

Knee on neck is a procedure that is taught to restrain someone. Sometimes these drug addled idiots smash their heads on the ground, Chauvin was not out of line.

Where is it taught to continue to kneel on a person’s neck for minutes after they’ve become unconscious? Because many of us are adamant that is out of line and needs to change.

Yes, at that point, or even before they coulda/shoulda used handcuffs on his ankles, if they were large enough. Then they could have closely watched him to protect him incase he popped out of it and began to thrash around again. I'm guessing they are taught to restrain until the medics arrive to prevent further injury, unfortunately this situation didn't go typically like is written in the book.

Not in my hood wrote:

Borya wrote:

Do you have any evidence for that?

So what do you think people think happened?

1) Chauvin simply attacked Floyd for no reason (he didn't try to arrest him or even notify him that he was a criminal suspect)

2) Floyd surrendered to the officers and followed their directions, but they decided to assault him instead

It's even worse if Floyd didn't resist arrest, but surely the main question is why continue kneeling on him for so long after he was clearly under control?

The evidence, as presented by the media, seems mixed. I just googled "floyd resisting arrest" and see the Daily Mail and Washington Times saying he resisted arrest and others saying he didn't resist arrest.

Great editing to put this spin on it...hope they are proud of all the destruction they caused!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I3SWcwD3EY

They say the police said he was resisting arrest. The video they had at the time doesn't show that. They mention at the end the police haven't yet revealed their body camera footage.

Why do you think the police withheld evidence if you think it shows them in a better light?

Borya wrote:

Are there cases where someone was not harmed after having a knee on their neck for 8 minutes? Unless there are examples of the police using this restraint for so long against compliant suspects, I can't see how they can justify Chauvin's actions.

There are cases. There are also plenty of cases of people with fentanyl concentrations as high as Floyd's in the morgue. In fact there are probably few cases of anyone with 11 ng/ml of fentanyl in their blood that lived (in a study of overdose deaths in CT, anyone over 5 ng/ml died).

It's also worth noting that EMS was late in arriving because they went to the wrong site, which prolonged the hold (cops may be trained to keep them restrained until the paramedics arrive and can be given a sedative to that they aren't attacking the paramedics). I'd also want to know what the EMTs administered when they arrived on scene (they gave him a shot of something, was it narcan or was it a sedative) before they hooked him up to the Stryker automatic CPR device (which is an impressive piece of equipment).

Borya wrote:

Not in my hood wrote:

Great editing to put this spin on it...hope they are proud of all the destruction they caused!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I3SWcwD3EY

They say the police said he was resisting arrest. The video they had at the time doesn't show that. They mention at the end the police haven't yet revealed their body camera footage.

Why do you think the police withheld evidence if you think it shows them in a better light?

There were numerous videos from that incident posted to social media the night it happened. The version MSM used had several minutes prior, including bystanders telling GF to stop fighting/stop resisting/telling him he can't win. Why do you think MSM decided to not show that portion?

Great question on why the body camera footage wasn't released, but have read it was for legal reason...typical!

But even in the Rayshard Brooks case there was way more footage and body camera footage released immediately and parts of the country went crazy burning sh!t and destroying property!

comedyre1i3f 2 wrote:

It's also worth noting that EMS was late in arriving because they went to the wrong site, which prolonged the hold (cops may be trained to keep them restrained until the paramedics arrive and can be given a sedative to that they aren't attacking the paramedics). I'd also want to know what the EMTs administered when they arrived on scene (they gave him a shot of something, was it narcan or was it a sedative) before they hooked him up to the Stryker automatic CPR device (which is an impressive piece of equipment).

Great point! I brought this up in the past and don't recall a response. If GF doesn't die and is just sent to jail , does DC or any of there others get fired?

runnerboy70 wrote:

Knee on neck is a procedure that is taught to restrain someone. Sometimes these drug addled idiots smash their heads on the ground, Chauvin was not out of line.

It's a p*ssy move for p*ssy cops who were bullies in middle school and want to live out their racist fantasies at any cost.

849 wrote:

runnerboy70 wrote:

Knee on neck is a procedure that is taught to restrain someone. Sometimes these drug addled idiots smash their heads on the ground, Chauvin was not out of line.

It's a p*ssy move for p*ssy cops who were bullies in middle school and want to live out their racist fantasies at any cost.

So how would you have handled the situation?

rogermortimer wrote:

Borya - the question is not whether one can justify the officer's actions. At some point I think they were unlawful. The real question is whether the officer committed murder. With the amount of fentanyl in Floyd's system, a murder conviction will not be easy to obtain, particularly under the criminal standard of proof. This is the challenge the prosecutors have. They want a murder charge to satisfy the masses, but there is peril in overcharging. You can bet the defense's pharmacological expert is going to testify that the amount of fentanyl in Floyd's system would have killed anyone. Indeed, Floyd was complaining about not breathing before the police touched him (which of course supports the assertion the police should have acted better but it does not support a murder charge).

This will be a painful case - likely violence to ensue.

I agree it seems unlikely they will be able to prove it was murder. But I thought the bigger stumbling block would be proving pre-meditation (what does this require though? Does he have to want to murder Floyd before the incident? Or if after 1 minute on Floyd's neck, Chauvin thinks to himself: "I could kill this man if I don't get off him soon.... I will not get off him soon", does that count as pre-meditation?).

What are the legal consequences if the cause of death can't be determined, but Chauvin's actions would have killed Floyd in the absence of drugs?

What would happen if two men shot a man (each shot in a part of the body which could cause death), who then died of gunshot wounds, and they couldn't determine which gunshot killed him? Could both men be found not guilty because there was reasonable doubt who was the killer? I thought in cases like this both would be found guilty of murder.

I think the reports of Floyd saying he couldn't breathe before being touched by police were made before reports of him being on fentanyl. When I first heard them, I thought maybe he was having a panic attack or maybe he was feigning one. Isn't there reasonable doubt about that?

Also, he seems to be in a lot of distress and screaming whilst he is being restrained on the floor. He didn't seem to be in distress before. That seems to support the contention that the restraint rather than the drugs were the main cause of his difficulty breathing.

849 wrote:

runnerboy70 wrote:

Knee on neck is a procedure that is taught to restrain someone. Sometimes these drug addled idiots smash their heads on the ground, Chauvin was not out of line.

It's a p*ssy move for p*ssy cops who were bullies in middle school and want to live out their racist fantasies at any cost.

deranged reply. Whatever your viewpoint, this entire sad affair was bougyt about by deranged behaviour. Maybe we would all be better if we tried to avoid it?

How do you come to that conclusion?

Also, if you knew you would be going back to jail for numerous years...wouldn't that make you a little panicky?

As i understand it, and ianal, that is the point, in the us, of second degree - its unpremeditated.

and george was acting weird from the moment the police talked to him - and his friends even said that this was part of his character.

he was in a car when the police found him, but when they ask him to go in a car, he suddenly claims he cant and that he is claustrophic.

his behaviour was deranged throughout, but possibly not intentionaly.

people tend not to shout; 'i cant breathe'.

comedyre1i3f 2 wrote:

Borya wrote:

Are there cases where someone was not harmed after having a knee on their neck for 8 minutes? Unless there are examples of the police using this restraint for so long against compliant suspects, I can't see how they can justify Chauvin's actions.

There are cases.

Do you have any links to them? I searched kneeling on neck, but I couldn't find any. There was a man in Ontario who apparently died the same way, but was not videoed. I've seen a few other examples of people who were restrained this way, but for much shorter periods of time.

I'm not aware of anyone other than Floyd who was restrained this way for so long and wasn't killed. If there isn't an example, then it's hard to argue that Chauvin's actions were sufficient to kill Floyd (either they killed him, or would have killed him in the absence of drugs).

I'm guessing some stats will be shared that the knee on the neck technique is used hundreds of times throughout the nation without fatalities.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Liaaa wrote:

He didn’t deserve to be killed in the street for any of that.

If we allow the police to murder people in the street at their own behest we have a real problem.

You’re a racist old coot.

You are the racist. You and your Democratic friends that have controlled crap hole inner cities for decades. Throw some more stimulus at it. Why? To use Blacks for power. To feed the welfare system, encourage broken families, and lack of personal responsibility. Great job you social justice warrior fool.

As usual a lot of of white guys somehow think its OK to handcuff someone face down in the middle of a busy street in broad daylight while officers hold the person down and another has their knee on his neck for 8 minutes, all while being filmed and people beg you to stop, even after he has stopped breathing.

This is a very evil racist place. Lets hope in another 25 years when whites are no longer the majority of citizens that they don't get treated like they treated every other race.

I would like to see the 100's of videos of black police officers murdering unarmed white people in the streets or shooting them dead in their homes minding their own business.

A quote from Reddit about the Minnesota statute for murder in the third degree, which most people think is the only charge that the prosecution can make stick.

"MURDER IN THE THIRD DEGREE.

"(a) Whoever, without intent to effect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 25 years."

Chauvin can only be convicted of murder in the third degree if the prosecution can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he was "evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life". Considering the circumstances of the case, I am relatively convinced that the defense may be able to create at least some reasonable doubt regarding Chauvin having a lacking regard for human life.

Let me explain what makes me think that, by going through the body cam footage and then going into what the defense could lean on. (I'm arguing from the standpoint of the defense. What I'm saying here isn't my personal opinion.)

If you watch the entirety of the body cam footage, it's clear that Floyd was acting erratically and the officers were confident that he was under the influence of drugs. The cops were relatively calm throughout most of the proceedings but Floyd had a full blown panic attack when the officers tried to put him into the police car. During this entire time, Floyd kept yelling that he can't breathe, even though nobody was doing anything to his neck, airways, mouth or chest.

At 39:53 of the video, Floyd is sitting on the back seat with his feet on the sidewalk, when his friend, who was with him before the arrest, tells him, "You ain't gonna win." Floyd responds, "I don't wanna win. I'm claustrophobic and I get excited." To which the officer responds "I'll roll the window down." Floyd continues "Man, im scared as fck, man. If I stop breathing, it's going to go out for me, man."

After that, a struggle ensues, where the officers try to get Floyd into the car. He then propels himself out of the other side of the car and yells that he wants to lie on the ground. At 41:27, his friend tells Floyd "You're going to have a heart attack, get in the car." and Floyd keeps yelling that he can't breathe and flops, kicks and struggles around in the car.

At 41:53, the officer with the body cam says "Let's take him out and just MRT." MRT being Maximum Restraint Techniques, which are used as a last resort to get individuals under control who remain violent and/or combative even after being handcuffed. These MRTs are supposed to protect the officers from harm but also to protect the detainee from harming themselves. One of these MRTs, which were trained and recommended by the Minneapolis police department, is the Neck Restraint which they describe as a "non-deadly force option. Defined as compressing one or both sides of a person's neck with an arm or leg, without applying direct pressure to the trachea or airway (front of the neck)". If you're looking at the example picture provided in the handbook, Chauvin performed this neck restraint exactly as recommended.

Then, as soon as he's on the ground, Floyd calls for his mom, tells the officers that they should tell his kids that he loves them and keeps repeating that he can't breathe. Then his friend tells him again to just get in the car, to which he responds that he can't breathe. Later he says that his neck and stomach hurt.

At 45:30, he says, "I can't breathe, Officer." Chauvin responds, "Then stop talking and yelling" Floyd interrupts, "You're going to kill me." and Chauvin finishes with "takes a heck of a lot of oxygen."

At 46:40, the officer with the body cam asks whether they should roll Floyd on the side because he's worried about the delirium. Chauvin responds that they should stay put right now and that the ambulance is less than 5 minutes away.

At 47:40, the officer with the body cam says "I think he's passing out.", at 48:05, he says "He's breathing." and at 48:31, he asks again whether they should roll him on the side. During the entire situation, he also keeps checking Floyd's pulse on his calves, which he does one last time at 49:45 and he still seems to feel it. Right after, you can hear the ambulance arriving and the officers slightly loosen their restraint until the EMTs take over.

Now, Chauvin's defense can use a whole lot of those events to avoid a guilty verdict on those murder charges. This is how I would argue if I had to come up with a defense strategy.

•Floyd had paid with counterfeit money and was legally arrested.

•Floyd was under the influence of fentanyl and was behaving erratically when officers tried to put him into the police car. Even though he was cuffed, he kept kicking and fighting, which endangered the officers' and Floyd's health and therefore justified applying MRTs.

•The MRT Chauvin applied was recommended by the police department and was categorized as a non-lethal force option. Therefore, Chauvin used this technique, which he believed to be non-lethal, to safely restrain Floyd.

•Since Floyd had claimed that he can't breathe throughout the interaction, even before anybody even touched is neck, mouth or chest, Chauvin could not take this claim seriously in the situation, especially since Floyd kept yelling and talking, which proved to Chauvin that Floyd could actually breathe. This becomes very apparent when Chauvin tells Floyd that he should stop talking and yelling, so he can breathe easier. This exchange with Floyd does not make sense if Chauvin actually thought he was obstructing Floyd's trachea.

•Since Chauvin's colleague kept checking Floyd's pulse, he was certain that Floyd had simply passed out due to the stress and drugs in his system and would be treated shortly by EMTs who could deal with his issues.

•Chauvin was trying to keep Floyd restrained until the ambulance arrived, with a technique that was taught to him as being non-lethal. He tried to protect the other officers from harm and Floyd from harming himself in his panic attack. He is extremely sorrowful that Floyd lost his life in this situation, but he acted with the best intentions and according to his training. In no instance did he show a lack of regard for human life.

If the defense team is smart, they are going to go much further than this and will argue that the police department was guilty of recommending dangerous restraining techniques and that Chauvin is in favor of reforming the police, having better de-escalation training and mental health experts within the department, so they can assist the police in situations where they have to deal with mentally ill people, people on drugs and people with panic attacks.

Additionally to all of this, the prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Floyd died due to the neck restraint and not due to heart failure caused by his panic attack and the drugs in his system.

With all of this on the table, I don't think it's unlikely that Chauvin will not be convicted of any of the murder charges. (Again, I'm just arguing the standpoint of the defense. This isn't my personal opinion.)"

Ward Cleaver wrote:

Borya wrote:

I think the reports of Floyd saying he couldn't breathe before being touched by police were made before reports of him being on fentanyl. When I first heard them, I thought maybe he was having a panic attack or maybe he was feigning one. Isn't there reasonable doubt about that?

Also, he seems to be in a lot of distress and screaming whilst he is being restrained on the floor. He didn't seem to be in distress before. That seems to support the contention that the restraint rather than the drugs were the main cause of his difficulty breathing.

How do you come to that conclusion?

Also, if you knew you would be going back to jail for numerous years...wouldn't that make you a little panicky?

He seemed a lot more distressed when the officer was kneeling on him. Both the way he was screaming and what he was screaming (not just: "I can't breathe" but also calling for his mother). I just watched a video of him before he was restrained on the floor. Police tap on his car door, he opens, they point a gun, give him instructions, he says: "Please don't shoot me." I couldn't understand a lot else of what was said, but I didn't hear him say he couldn't breathe. Are there several videos? (Perhaps I haven't seen the clearest one)

When he is being handcuffed it is hard to see what is going on. An officer tells him to stop resisting and he replies he isn't resisting.

If he was panicky because he was worried about going to jail, that would support my argument that any initial claims he couldn't breathe weren't due to drugs.

Ward Cleaver wrote:

I'm guessing some stats will be shared that the knee on the neck technique is used hundreds of times throughout the nation without fatalities.

I think I've heard hundreds, or maybe thousands. But for how long? Maybe it's not too dangerous for a minute or two.

Someone said they will be trained not to get off them until the ambulance arrives, but surely there would have been many instances where an ambulance takes a lot longer than 8 minutes to arrive.

Some police officers say it's dangerous though:

'For police trainers and criminologists, the episode appears to be a textbook case of why many police departments around the country have sought to ban outright or at least limit the use of chokeholds or other neck restraints in recent years: The practices have led too often to high-profile deaths.

“It is a technique that we don’t use as much anymore because of the vulnerability,” said Mylan Masson, a former police officer who ran a training program for the Minneapolis police for 15 years until 2016. “We try to stay away from the neck as much as possible.”'