Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

Can you point to a single study demonstrating that differences in motor control between individuals contribute to differences in running economy?

dear Andrew Coggan, what do you think about breaststroke swimming as cross training for a runner specializing in 1500-5000m and how would you apply it? serious answer only please

Wanted to see if anyone had a good response to this great q by parkerjohn before the thread got hijacked by lexel and Coggan. Has anyone had any luck doing sub-T every other day, scrapping the long run? I know someone mentioned in previous pages that keeping the long run, in theory, allows for better recovery than just doing another sub-T day, but curious if others have found that just doing sub-T is manageable given the very controlled effort.

The interesting aspect of the training system outlined in this thread is that there is essentially no training specifically aimed at running economy. No strides. Nothing faster than k reps at 12-15k pace or so. In your opinion, what is the minimum effective dose of training that should be included that is aimed at running economy? I’m wondering if just doing strides on the easy days would make a big difference.

The easy long run isn't just for creating space for recovery in training, but also building the capacity for recovery. The specific stimulus of keeping a long easy effort helps develop metabolic flexibility and general capacity in the mitochondria that only faster running probably doesn't accomplish. This important for performance at the longer events 10k+, and important for general fitness and the capacity to adapt to all types of training in any event 1500m+.

As soon as the effort crosses over LT1 into that sub-threshold territory the cells by necessity will start to shift from away fat metabolism towards more carbohydrates to keep up with rate of energy demand. It's still mostly aerobic but there will be little bit more anaerobic metabolism. It's subtle shift, but still does change the internal signaling somewhat.

For most of the folks in this thread (key word: lower mileage) I think it's particularly valuable to keep an easy longer run in (~17-22% of weekly volume) because they generally aren't getting any long singles in on the normal easy/recovery days or a huge amount of easy volume in general. For an athlete that is higher overall volume and regularly getting some relatively long singles in on normal easy days they could probably afford to ditch the long run, or rather their "long" run just doesn't look particularly long against their normal runs.

Sirpoc does strides and some occasional hill work. You think he got to where he is without it? Look at his long runs that is usually where stride work is done.

This is common thinking, but it isn't correct.

The studies showing the largest improvements in muscle mitochondria in humans have had people training more intensely, not longer.

As far as longitudinal studies go, this early one by Gollnick remains the all-time champion:

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Effect of training on enzyme activity and fiber composition of human skeletal muscle - PubMed

Effect of training on enzyme activity and fiber composition of human skeletal muscle

Link:pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/4348914/

After just 5 mo of training for only 4 h/wk, SDH activity increased by 95%, thus essentially equaling that found in elite runners who have trained much for much longer.

Better than sitting on the couch, but not much?

Sorry maybe Andrew Coggan/maybe random troll/maybe lexel's alt, I'm going to take the consensus wisdom of all the most successful running coaches, most exercise physiologists, and my own personal experience of running fast and working with fast people over one study from the 70s.

If you have some better evidence or care to actually explain the mechanism at work I'm all ears.

You can do whatever you want, but you will be wrong.

The study cannot be read, from this link?

Follow the DOI, then download the PDF.

What do you think running economy is?

Or pedalling efficiency on a bicycle?

Me too. What mitochondrial adaptions are we looking for? I don't believe that it's more mitochondria unless you are constantly under fueling, because chronic calorie deficit= slightly lowered basal metabolic rate.

So by the same logic, to optimise mitochondrial numbers we have to eat enough to maintain maximal basal metabolic rate. However, mitochondrial density can increase hugely, by an increase in the size of each mitochondrion, and this requires a lot of work at every intensity for several weeks. In other words, good old fashioned training methods that have been around for about 70 years.

I'm sure AC has heard of the success attained by Norwegian distance runners, that's why he's spamming this thread, but does he know how they train?

Sirpoc does not do any strides. He has said so himself. There aren’t any strides in the long run.

Coggan, or the troll, or whoever, seems to have read passed my question for him on the minimal effective dose for implementing running economy training.

Hills and strides in the same long run? Or mix it up week to week? I think it's a great compliment to his training and proves that strides and hills really have a place for everyone. Great thread.

I mean I really did and was fooled into thinking this was really Coggan dropping into our thread for the last week. But cmon now, this is clear troll attempt. Maybe it lexel? But damn we have many trolls on LRC but I applaud this account. Very good work and hooked me in .

Sirpoc does not do strides or hills. Strides are more beneficial for more neuromuscular runners, and Sirpoc is more slow twitch.

If so, it's a very good impersonation.