Sub 3HR Fall Marathon Thread - The quest for less amateur glory begins?

Hey folks, another week closer to Marathon Weekend. Three weeks to go.

My stats: 43 year old guy, 5'11" 165 lbs.

My last sub-3 was two decades ago, most recent marathon was 4:29:34. At age 40 I ran 3:12:46, my fastest in 20 years. Hope to better that by at least 13 minutes this year!

As reported last Sunday, I started the week with a little 5K race -- a mostly solo effort for the overall win (5:44 pace). The next day was a 17-mile long run at 8-minute pace. Then just light, easy mileage until yesterday.

Saturday's half marathon went very well for the first 10 miles. I started conservatively with 6:32, 6:30. Felt good and accelerated, averaging 6:08 for the next 8 miles -- 1:02:07 at 10 miles.

Unfortunately, at 10.6 miles, intestinal problems forced a pit stop that cost almost a minute. I only managed 6:20 pace from there, finishing at 1:22:46 (6:19 avg including the stop). Still, that was good enough for 10th overall and first master (385 total runners). Not the best pacing, and the stop was disheartening, but I'm satisfied with the result.

Sunday- 5K race 17:48 (2 mile warmup)

Monday- 17 miles at 8:05 pace

Tuesday- 4.6 miles 7:48 pace

Wednesday- 4.6 miles easy with 10 strides

Thursday- 7 miles easy

Friday- off

Saturday- HM race 1:22:46 (62:07 at 10 miles)

51 miles total. Three weeks to go.

Highhopping - Yeah, for sure start at 6:40 pace. Your fitness is better than 1:30 half marathon.

Toadlips - That's scary about the hamstring. I have no advice for you, just hope it resolves quickly. That Tuesday workout -- 4x2Tw/2min E recovery (6:25, 6:27, 6:30, 6:39) -- is that 4 x 2 miles? Eight miles at threshold pace is impressive, even if on the slow side of T pace. Yesterday's 6:15ish pace is closer to your actual T pace?

Joshiebear - Looking good for sub-3. Are you Canadian, or just prefer the more sensible metric measurements? I'm embarrassed to admit I had to convert to mile pace.

Happy trails, all.

1 week to go until the marathon (10/6/2019)

goal is a sub 3:20

this cycle has been about weight loss and getting back into running after a year hiatus.

Taper Week 1.5

Monday 1 up + 4 at (Marathon RPE) - 7:22, 7:21, 7:19, 7:23 - felt really good.

Tuesday - 4 miles easy at 7:46 pace

Wednesday - 1 up + 3.1 "tempo" at 6:27 pace + 1 down - probably pushed too hard on the tempo pace.

Thursday - off - rest

Friday - (3pm) - 3 mile jog 24:00

Friday - (11pm) 1 up + 10,000m time trial + 1 down

- TT splits of 6:47, 6:49, 6:46, 6:43, 6:43, 6:41, 1:29 (this was on a track

Saturday - off - rest

Sunday 12 miles 8:05 pace (75 with 70 dew point - death march :( - felt glorious over the first few miles, but really died over the final miles. was soaked after this one- overheated, volume down, etc.)

38 miles on the week down from an average of 55 mpw for this cycle.

weather next week is calling for 55 at the start with a high of 70 for the day. should be much different weather than today which is calling for a high in the upper 80s low 90s.

Hi everyone,

Stats: 47yrs /M , hobbyjogger for 17yrs. PR 2:48:03 from 2014, last sub 3 2015.

Target: Bruges marathon Belgium october 20th.

Last heavy week this one. Glad it's finally over. Had it with +20mi long runs now...

Here's my week:

Mon: OFF (usually rest 2 days after sundays long as I'm on low mileage with a lot of quality)

Tue: OFF (see above)

Wed: 13.6mi at 6'35/mi (10mi at 6'20/mi)

Thu: Easy 6.9mi at 8'12/mi

Fri: 8x800m at 2'53 with 2'30 jog rest. Total 8.9mi.

Sat: OFF

Sun: 22mi with 3.8mi at 6'41/mi (between mile 13-16.8)

DFQUE!!! Got truncated...

Hi everyone,

Stats: 47yrs /M , hobbyjogger for 17yrs. PR 2:48:03 from 2014, last sub 3 2015.

Target: Bruges marathon Belgium october 20th.

Last heavy week this one. Glad it's finally over. Had it with +20mi long runs now...

Here's my week:

Mon: OFF (usually rest 2 days after sundays long as I'm on low mileage with a lot of quality)

Tue: OFF (see above)

Wed: 13.6mi at 6'35/mi (10mi at 6'20/mi)

Thu: Easy 6.9mi at 8'12/mi

Fri: 8x800m at 2'53 with 2'30 jog rest. Total 8.9mi.

Sat: OFF

Sun: 22mi with 3.8mi at 6'41/mi (between mile 13-16.8) rest at 8min/mi pace.

Total: 51.3mi

Happy with my week. i bounced back nicely from the cph half 1:22:52 from a couple of weeks ago. Have managed to stay healthy and execute 2 good weeks in a row. For wednesdays M pace I needed to get a good vibe going in to the last couple of weeks. Decided to take my 4% on this run as well as a Maurten gel. The shoes make all the difference in the world! cruised 10mi at 6'20/mi and felt superfast. That gave me a confindence boost for sure. I usually only race in these shoes in order to not get used to the feeling in training.

Fridays 800s I had to do on the treadmill due to a lot of rain and wind. Just didn't have it in me to go to the track (which of course is next to the sea with no wind protection facing the ocean)... Felt really good on those 800s though. Feels like peak form is imminent! Todays long run... I'm really really fed up with the +20mi runs. I normally love these, but when I'm doing so much quality on low mileage I'm living with a constant feeling of legs made of concrete. Had to dig deep to just do it, knowing that this is the last long one. Happy I did it. The M part felt like shiet, but I kept reminding myself that rested legs and 4% on race day will be sweet...

As a fitness assessment my 10k went well, as a race, I’m annoyed with the results.

Splits:

1: 3:36 (took off with the leader, I guess my watch as lagging as it was said we started at 4:30 and had only gradually sped up to 3:50/3:45, needless to say, I slowed down at that point and let the leader go)

2. 3:55 ( front running into a head wind feeling strong, in 2nd place)

3. 3:59

4. 3:59 (started to feel a bit of a side stitch building, got passed by some guy, and didn’t follow because of the stitch, sitting in 3rd. Then the person who had been drafting me from the start moved past, I snuck behind to steal the draft for a moment)

5. 4:00 (side stitch was getting worse. Right as passed the turn around point picked up the pace, moved back into 3 and started closing the gap on 2)

6. 4:24 (had originally dropped the pace down to 3:50 as the wind was now at my back and was really gaining on second, then the stitch got way worse. Tried to run through it but it just kept growing and had stop to stretch it out. Got passed by a few people was in 5 or 6)

7. 4:03 the stitch was mostly gone, I had slowly picked up the pace from 4:25 down to 3:50.

8. 3:50 (kept speeding up trying to catch up, passed either the 4th or 5th place person [waiting on the full results to know for sure], and worked my way down to 3:45)

9. 4:08 (had really closed the gap on either the 3 or 4 placed guy, but I had picked up the pace by too much too quickly and couldn’t maintain, he slipped away)

10. 4:05 (really hurting still hoping to catch 4th or 3rd, but couldn’t close the gap)

.2 [garmin watch, the course was probably accurate] 3:05 (kicked to the finish).

Total 40:20 or 39:56 moving time (ie without the stop for the stitch).

So disappointing as a race because if I paced evenly and didn’t get a stitch I probably could have medaled and ran sub 40.

As a fitness indicator, I’m happy with the result because (a little shoulda, woulda, coulda) with proper pacing, no stitch my time would have been below 40. Also the course was gravel which is generally worth 5-10 seconds which would have brought my time down to where it should be for a sub 3 tune up.

Also I races the same course in the spring following a 1:30 half with stomach issues and ran 42:00. So today was a 5% improvement, and a 5% improvement in the half would have been 1:25:30 (which If you account for the stomach issues) puts sub 3 in sights.

I know, lots of rationalization, but overall happy with race as a fitness indicator, even the though race itself was poor.

last chance runner - Legendary week! 5k in 17:48 on Sunday and a 1:22:46 HM with a pit stop on Saturday? You are absolutely, positively going to blow the doors off that recent 4:29:34. :)

That's scary about the hamstring. I have no advice for you, just hope it resolves quickly. That Tuesday workout -- 4x2Tw/2min E recovery (6:25, 6:27, 6:30, 6:39) -- is that 4 x 2 miles? Eight miles at threshold pace is impressive, even if on the slow side of T pace. Yesterday's 6:15ish pace is closer to your actual T pace?

Yeah, it tightened up without warning. Very strange since that's never been an issue with me, and now it's happened twice in this training cycle. I've been doing some digging around, looking for info, and I'm foam rolling and also hitting it with my TimTam power massager. I have a good feeling that it will resolve in a week, but I did some soul searching and if I don't feel like I'm going to be ready for action by October 13th, I'll probably skip Chicago and shoot for a marathon in November instead.

6:15 is probably a bit fast for my T pace, but I felt really good from the mini taper. In retrospect, I probably should have kept it at 6:25. Maybe that would have averted disaster. Yes, the Tuesday workout was 4x2T miles (8 total) per Jack Daniels' 2Q plan. I've noticed that most of the folks on this thread have been doing shorter M and T workouts in their long runs (maybe 4-5 miles at the end) and have workouts in their shorter runs as well. Jack Daniels puts the long run and the workout together and, so aside from those 2Q (Quality) days, everything is Easy.

Northener - You're a beast, man! As a fellow 47 year old just trying to get a little sub-3 action, I salute you and your efforts. Between the workouts, the race, and the long runs, you look well prepared for the sub-3 challenge.

Free_the_thigh - You ran a good race. I know you wanted to use the 10k as a fitness indicator, but that went out the window due to the side stitch. I've been there, complete with the math where all equations lead to sub-3. You are on the cusp of the sub-3, my friend, and this 10k doesn't provide more answers, only more questions. Do your workouts/long runs indicate sub-3 potential? My advice is that if you're going to take the "sub-3 challenge", be conservative in the first half (1:30) and try to negative split the second half. It's the safest way to run a sub-3!

Looking for some help here.

I have been reading and enjoying this thread from afar.

I am looking to run my first sub 3 on 20th October. In this cycle I have run low 35min 10k, 16:30 5k and a 1:16:30 half marathon.

I have been doing around 50-55mpw, with no real speed work, just long run at weekend (4x20milers - 4x18milers - the rest all above 16miles) and a midweek of 12 miles, rest of week filled with easy 5milers ish. I have been doing stretches of MP in long runs, my best being a 18 miler with the last 10 miles quicker than race pace (ended up being 3:50per km), this was hard but I completed it.

All was going well until last week, the last before taper, I did 5 miles on Mon at MP then got a stinking cold, couldn’t run all week until Sat when I had my last long run planned, I did 6 miles easy followed by a Half Marathon race that I planned to hit at MP (1:22:30). It was a flat course but pretty windy, all was going well until 8 miles when it stayed to go south, I got stitch/cramps and could not hold pace at all, ended up grinding it out in pain to finish in 1:25 flat. This has all just floored me mentally, I don’t know if my fitness just isn’t there or if it was to do with being ill the week before - I was also pretty dehydrated at the end, I drank small amounts on the way around but urine was very dark for the rest of the day. Missing my biggest week of training has put me on the back foot big time and I am meant to be starting my taper this week but don’t know what to do about that either as I just want to chase last weeks lost fitness.

I’ve built this up as an all or nothing attempt, if I am going to come up short I would rather not do it as I just don’t fancy the pain of the race and then recovery period afterwards.

Does anyone have any advice or ideas for me.

Joshiebear: Looking good. Good luck with your race!! And thanks for using the metric system :) I calculated kms into miles as it seemed the majority in this thread uses miles. Go get the sub3!

last chance runner: Woah!! Super solid week... 17:48 and 1:22:46, that's hardcore. The HM you can probably easily take 1 min off the time with that pit stop. Too bad that, you had a faster time in you for sure!

Toadlips: Thanks. Will do my best and see where it gets me!

Free_the_thigh: Too bad with the stitch. The uneven pacing and stitch certainly affected your sub40. I would be careful to extrapolate 5% from the 10k to the half. Good luck with your sub3 attempt. Only you know if you have done the work.

last chance runner - wow! You are ready- what is your target MP?

Toadlips - thanks for explaining the workout

Free_the_Thigh - solid race and those stitches always come at the worst time - too much food before?

Got through the "celebratory" phase of my 12 weeks of training...back from the wedding in mexico - managed a 10 miler in the brutal heat followed by an 8 miler the following day..took off yesterday as it was a travel day. Managed 66.1 miles..

5 weeks to go with 3 peak weeks left...shooting for 80+ a week to close out these three weeks with a HM on Saturday.

Lets do this!

Hi All,

Just started a two week taper for my HM on 10/13. This was my first time doing this so wanted to get some feedback on if this sounds right. Last 3 weeks of mileage were 53, 62, 51 for reference.

This Week:

Sunday - 8 miles slow @ 8:00 average (9:00 down to 7:30)

Monday - 6 miles slow @ 7:50 average (8:42 down to 7:05)

Tuesday - Off

Wednesday - 1 up, 2 mile/1 mile/.75 mile/.5 mile w/ 800 fast jog recovery at 6 minute pace, 1 down. This will be at 5k altitude so times might be a bit off. Will run in racing flats on the roads.

Thursday - 5 miles slow at 5k altitude

Friday - 7 miles slow progression

Saturday - 10 miles moderate

Total: 44 miles

Next Week:

Sunday - 6 miles slow

Monday - 8 miles moderate

Tuesday - Off

Wednesday - 2 up, 3 @ 6:40. 6:35, 6:30, 2 down. 7 total.

Thursday- 5 miles slow

Friday - 4 miles slow

Saturday - Off

Total: 30 miles

Race is then on Sunday. Thoughts?

Take everything I say with a grain of salt because you are way faster than me and sound more experienced. I would probably still taper but maybe add 5% mileage to what you were originally planning for this week and really focus on hitting one primary workout well and on pace to get some confidence back. It sounds like you got sick and it took a bit to shake off, it happens. I wouldn't worry too much if you put the requisite training in.

Toadlips: ya I’m definitely on the cusp, the race indicates sub 3 is a possibility, not a probability, but that was the only answer I was expecting to get. I figure I need to keep fingers crossed for good weather and hope I can tuck into a pack of a few runners at sub 3 pace.

If I wanted to be safe I could probably run a strong 3:10/3:05, but to be honest I’d rather put it on the line and shoot for sub 3. So the plan is to try and cross half at 1:30, and then see what happens.

Effilio: if sub 3 is goal, just start to taper now, you have the fitness.

Northerner: ya, I agree, all of my “calculations” have to be taken with a large chunk of salt.

Runnerchef: I don’t think it was too much food, I just had my regular breakfast the day of. My thoughts are that it was either caused by running the first k too fast, or from the wine and cocktails I had at diner the night before (wine counts as carb loading right?). If not one of those two causes, I don’t know, just bad luck.

Hi All,

I'm entering the taper phase now with 3 weeks to go until my target marathon. Last week was a really big week, and I CRUSHED it!

Monday: 5k Time Trial - solo on a local track. 17:57. WU and Cooldown Total 7.2Mi

Tuesday: Easy - 4.5Mi @ 8:28 pace

Wednesday: Easy again - 5 mi @ 8:51 pace

Thursday: 2X3mi Lactate Threshold effort run with 2 min. Jog in between reps.

- 6:35, 6:32, 6:26 (Super dark and running on a poorly lit trail - I had no idea what the splits were as I didn't check my watch the whole workout)

-6:07, 6:11, 6:06 (Light enough to see without using my led light anymore. I knew I was going a bit faster than the first rep, but I didn't feel like I was straining)

Total - 8.6 Mi.

Friday: Easy - 5mi @ 8:37

Saturday: Long run 20 mi. Total with first 9 easy: around 8:15 pace. 10 mi at MP - averaged 6:43, 1 mi. CD~9 min pace.

Really hilly run with over 1,000 ft. elevation gain total. My goal marathon has somewhere around 900, so running MP for 10 miles over hills in 65 degree weather was a pretty big confidence boost.

Sunday: 4 mi easy @ 9:12.

I'm planning to cut all my easy days down to 4 mi this week, and do 2 shorter LT runs, as well as throw in 5-6 MP miles to my long run this weekend (should be 15ish miles).

I feel strong and healthy with a lot less lingering niggles than I expected to have at this point in training.

I'm trying to decide what goal time to shoot for since my BQ standard is 3:00, but the 2021 cutoff will likely be around 3 minutes under that. I don't know if I should shoot for 2:57 (although I think the fitness is there), or just try to go out in around 1:30 and see how I feel.

I’ve been lurking and posting in this thread for a bit and figure it’s time to jump in even though my sub 3 attempt is January—I just signed up for Houston. Anyone ever do this one? My wife, who just missed Boston by a hair, will be doing it as well.

M36, 143, 5’9. Live in MN.

PRs: Marathon- 3:08 (June 2019); HM- 1:23:22 (Sept. 2019)

Marathon history: 3:40 (2017), 3:32 (2018), 3:08 (June 2019)*

*The first two marathons featured little to no training, like 20-30MPW with no speed/tempo work and really only long runs. Started “serious” training in October 2018. I went out pretty conservatively when I got the 3:08 this June, negative splitting by about two minutes. Probably could’ve gone a titch faster, but played it safe since that training run-up featured 3 weeks off of running about two months prior to race due to posterior tib. Tendonitis. Hoping to avoid that this cycle! I’m a pretty “low” mileage guy. Anything above 55 MPW and I start to fall apart. Will be following Jack Daniels again this cycle. Hoping for decent training weather, but you never know what Nov./Dec. will bring in Minnesota. Fingers crossed.

This last week:

Sun – 7.5@8’44

Mon – 4.5 @ 8’20

Tues – 4.5 @ 8’06 with some striders

Weds. 11.0 total. 2x 2T + 1 T + 4 hill sprints @ 20 seconds and 2 hill “slogs” @ 1 min. Went out way too quickly the first T set—6’00 for both miles! I aim for comfortably hard and usually don’t check my watch, and for some reason it didn’t feel too fast. I guess the fall weather had something to do with that. The other T miles were better paced—averaging 6’15.

Th – 5.0@8’30

F – 3.5@8’30

S – 16, with 2 x 4miles @ MP +5/10 sec. Again, went mostly be feel. MP miles averaged 6’58. Felt good.

Total: 52.

Have a great week all! I hope to post comments soon.

Highhoppingworm: I second RunGuy Midwest—maybe slow down your E runs. Again, can’t wait to see what you do in that HM! Good on you for playing it conservative, but I for one can’t wait to see what you might do if the first half of that race feels good and you decide to pick it up . Nice to see you signed up for that marathon. I think your time of 3:20 is appropriate. The marathon is a different beast and I really think it’s good to be conservative and try to negative split—way more fun than the alternative “death march positive split”—trust me. If I remember correctly, you only started training relatively recently, correct? If I could give a piece of unsolicited advice, it would just be to listen to your body when/if you feel tired or get those inevitable niggles. After never having done much real training, I got into it last year and started averaging 50MPW. I never planned for “step back” weeks where I decreased mileage to give my body a break and ended up getting a bad overuse injury. So, in other words, as a relatively new runner, don’t be like me ;o)

Your taper plan looks good. I might put 2 min. rest/easy running in between the HMP miles on the Weds. before the race (rather than running those continuously). Do you run by watch or by feel when doing HMP miles?

HarryPlopper: I really like the idea of a 9 day cycle for us “old” guys. Maybe I will give it a go sometime, esp. if I end up injured on this training cycle again. Mileage looks really strong.

Toadlips: Nice week! Really sorry to hear about the hamstring. Running injuries are such a frustrating thing, but sounds like you are approaching it with a good mindset. I hope it clears up and you can do Chicago. All the fitness is already in the bank, so maybe do an “aggressive” taper and see how it is? By the way, I also follow Daniels. I always feel like I’m playing with fire if the run has more than 6 @ T.

Last chance: Heck of an HM, even with the intestinal issues. 8 miles at 6’08 is no joke. Looking good.

Hello there: good luck with the marathon this week!

Northener: Impressive run on Weds! Do you always take 3 days off/week? Your HM time looks great. I think I will pull the trigger on a pair of 4% for Houston.

Free the thigh: sorry about the stomach issues. I think you’ll be just fine. Sometimes races just turn out that way.

Effillo: Impressive times! They indicate you are well above sub 3 fitness. Colds linger in your body well past the point where mentally you’re feeling better. A 1:16HM guy does not turn into a 1:25 guy without some flukey reason. In other words, that race was the product of your body being worn down/dehydrated. It wasn’t a reflection of your fitness. Move on and you will be just fine.

Finally ran: Heck of a confidence boost indeed! Good job on that 20 miler! Tons of elevation—impressive. What marathon are you doing?

I'm also pretty new to this game but my gut tells me to cut the mileage the week of the race...maybe make Sunday moderate, Monday 4-5 miles slow, Weds cut to 5 with 1 up 1 down or 2 up 2 pace 1 down, Thursday / Friday maybe 3 miles each day?

Thanks for the comment and agree on the recovery runs... I need more discipline. You are correct that I started running in mid-June this year. I was planning on a late winter or early spring marathon with a more appropriate build-up (assuming this one on 11/10 doesn't change my mind...). I am thinking I will try to run under 3 hours and in the 12 week build up to that race try to build up to 70m/week by going 50, 55, 60, 55, 60, 65, 60, 65, 70, 65, 70, 70 with every 4th week as a down week. Does that look about right?

I like your idea to throw in a little rest for that Wednesday workout before the race and will take it.

runnerchef wrote:

You are ready- what is your target MP?

Goal pace is sub-6:52 per mile. My training has been more consistent compared to previous years, but overall mileage remains pretty low. That tends to bite me in marathons.

During the past ten years, I've run six marathons - 4:10, 4:07, 3:35, 3:12, 3:48, 4:29.

So, anything faster than 3:00 will be big deal for me. I'll just play it by ear on race day, stay relaxed and keep the pace better than 6:52 per mile. I hope.

highhoppingworm wrote:

Next Week:

Sunday - 6 miles slow

Monday - 8 miles moderate

Tuesday - Off

Wednesday - 2 up, 3 @ 6:40. 6:35, 6:30, 2 down. 7 total.

Thursday- 5 miles slow

Friday - 4 miles slow

Saturday - Off

Total: 30 miles

Race is then on Sunday. Thoughts?

I think you're going to have a great race! Don't be too conservative. You're last week looks good. Peronally, I would cut down a little bit on the Wednesday workout like suggested. I wouldn't do T-pace, rather 3-4x10k speed with full rwcoveries (like 3min). You have the T-traning in the bag, by doing some faster reps you'll be "snappier" on race day. Also, Thursday/Friday I'd go really easy (8-9pace) and the finish those days with 4-5x strides (15-20" really fast, but controlled), full rest between. This will get your legs ready to execute on race day. These are just suggestions of course, works really well for me. Good luck! You're going to crush it!