Olympic Marathon Silver Medalist Eunice Kirwa Busted for EPO Doping

rekrunner wrote:

If you want to talk about EPO and running results, talk about running results, with real examples, not the Tour de France, or climate change.

FFS rekrunner we have two examples of "EPO and running results" with Kirwa and Sumgong! The two top finishers at Rio now dopers! The top two finishers who ignite a massive acceleration in the last 5k or so blowing the other girls away!

Now don't try and tell me that It's just a coincidence that the top two finishers at Rio happen to be Kenyans caught for doping. I know you want to instill in us that there's nothing to see there. But really...how many more top Kenyan female marathoners have to get busted for dope before you realize the benefit they're getting from doping?

What's up with this? wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

If you want to talk about EPO and running results, talk about running results, with real examples, not the Tour de France, or climate change.

FFS rekrunner we have two examples of "EPO and running results" with Kirwa and Sumgong! The two top finishers at Rio now dopers! The top two finishers who ignite a massive acceleration in the last 5k or so blowing the other girls away!

Now don't try and tell me that It's just a coincidence that the top two finishers at Rio happen to be Kenyans caught for doping. I know you want to instill in us that there's nothing to see there. But really...how many more top Kenyan female marathoners have to get busted for dope before you realize the benefit they're getting from doping?

i wish i was astute enough to search the LR files to find the rek/canova/apologist rants about EPO and kenyans

i think i have a pretty decent memory, so i will try my best to give my testimony of what i READ from them

- kenyans dont even take asprin why would they ever dope, they are so nice and humble

(kenyans start getting popped)

- doesnt matter they are getting busted, they are not top tier kenyans, top tier kenyans are not mindweak, so they would never dope

(more kenyans go down)

- no worry they are not top tier, top tier is WR and Olympic GOLD

(jeptoo goes down)

- she only did EPO cause she was out of shape.....but EPO doesnt work on top tier kenyans

(sumgong goes down)

- Olympic Gold in marathon isnt that big of a deal, its watered down

(praises kipchoge for winning gold)

- 16 paragraphs YELLING AT PEOPLE ON HOW DUMB THEY ARE, EPO DOESNT WORK ON TOP TIER KENYANS

(lots of research papers are posted, jeptoo and sumgong are still in the news, but some poster keeps claiming a BIGGER name will drop)

- i predicted it was kiprop, then things GOT really heated, and then it changed to EPO doesnt work on top tier kenyans who are in tip top shape that have TOP coaches

(kiprop goes down)

- more busts, and still the 15 paragraph YELLING rants on how we are all so STUPID

(kiptum WR half, i predicted he would get popped or if he didnt then 5k-10k WRs would go down...he goes DOWN, 5k was just under 13 min)

so a short summary, only mindweak fools would take EPO cause it doestn work, the deniers/apologists made BOLD claims "when has a top tier ELITE gotten busted for EPO", and EVEN after

- olympic Gold and silver medals

- top ten times EVER on a slow boston course

- top time ever in 1500

- WR half marathon

- World Champ medals

there are still people demanding MORE proof hahaha, only here on LR can this fantasy land that EPO doesnt work lives on

Back to Kirwa and Bahrain for a minute:

Does anyone know if she tested positive OOC in Bahrain or Kenya? If it was Bahrain it would have come out of the WADA-accredited lab in Qatar. If Kenya it would be the new "PLK" lab in Nairobi I believe.

Anyone know what her training schedule looks like? Does she split training between Bahrain and Kenya? Who's her coach?

And what's going on with these imported Africans to Bahrain who are getting for caught doping? In addition to Kirwa, there's recent cases with Jebet (EP0), Adekoya (Stanozolol) and Mikhou (ABP provisional suspension). Are they being promised a small fortune if they perform well in the name of Bahrain and not get caught for doping?

And would Bahrain athletics have anything to do with the doping or are these athletes doing programs under their coaches/agents back in their home country?

https://www.athleticsintegrity.org/disciplinary-process/provisional-suspensions-in-force

So is performance here a fast time, or a medal win? If it's time, Sumgong is now outside the top-30 of all time. If it's medal wins, we've seen Sunday Times tell us that 11% of medal wins in the marathon were "suspicious", over a 12 year period. Compare this to "dirtier" events like race-walking, and the 1500m, at 50% medals won by the same metric, and an overall medal win average of 30%. I don't believe it is a coincidence because the belief in EPO is high, even among elites, and dopers will be found all along the spectrum. Winners will be found more often as they get tested more, especially when they win. How many have to get busted before I realize the benefit they are getting? That is a tough question, since we cannot prove things by example, and being busted doesn't show that a benefit was realized. In any case, more than 2.

What's up with this? wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

If you want to talk about EPO and running results, talk about running results, with real examples, not the Tour de France, or climate change.

FFS rekrunner we have two examples of "EPO and running results" with Kirwa and Sumgong! The two top finishers at Rio now dopers! The top two finishers who ignite a massive acceleration in the last 5k or so blowing the other girls away!

Now don't try and tell me that It's just a coincidence that the top two finishers at Rio happen to be Kenyans caught for doping. I know you want to instill in us that there's nothing to see there. But really...how many more top Kenyan female marathoners have to get busted for dope before you realize the benefit they're getting from doping?

Once again, another non-running analogy. Whatever it reminds you of, it is not like the Catholic Church. I don't talk much about prevalence or try to minimize prevalence -- I believe prevalence is high, because practice is high, because belief is high. I can't minimize the effect until it has been properly quantified. Being busted for doping does not help quantify effect. Nor does talking about the Catholic Church or global warming. In any case, Mr. English, this is not the definition of apologist.

Armstronglivs wrote:

Anyone who constantly seeks to minimise the prevalence of doping and its effects on performance is an apologist. You remind me of those who strenuously defend the Catholic Church against allegations of abuse, by minimising the charges against it - despite one priest after another, and even an occasional Cardinal, being revealed as an abuser. Like athletes being busted for doping.

lolz your still at it, not ever CONSIDERING the ones who got busted with FAST TIMES, im sure since your super smart you somehow forgot all about these people

Brahim Boulami.....nothing too spectacular just a 7:53.17 WR 3000m st

oh and shoot i totally forgot about this girl

Ruth Jebet, you know its not like she is fast or top tier or anything with her 8:52.78 WR 3000m st

but yeah if we use olympic Golds you claim its a slow time, if we use WR or top ten times you have some excuse for that as well, lolz lolz lolz

i think you do this all the time to feel like your winning....its not winning if the LOSING argument side keeps changing the criteria of what is being argued....and for YEARS now how many times do me and others have to point out

FAST TIMES (YES WR FAST) and OLYMPIC and WORLD CHAMP GOLD

how you can make such an asinine comment about sumgongs time.......so kipchoge ran a 2:08.....are you saying HE is slow? or are you trying to twist and mix? saying her gold doesnt count cause HER PR is 69th on the all time list? are you so blind to see she ran that time in BOSTON? how much slower is boston than say BERLIN mr all knowing?

well since you will prob ignore this or make another lame tangent onto something else i will do it myself

for men it appears the average fastest times excluding the wind aided is around mid 2:07, for berlin its say 2:04 now days

thats a 3 min difference

now for women

looks like its around 2:24 maybe for boston, and around 2:20 for berlin...so 4 minutes

so with a LITTLE bit of logic and reasoning one might deduce that SUMGONG would have RUN a F*CKING 2:17 at berlin, which then would put her at TOP F*CKING TEN ALL TIME IN THE WOMENS MARATHON

but of course this is just my belief and no one ever could think that comparing a time on boston to berlin would be ANY different....lolz

- the poster formally known as m!ndweak

If it was a "rek" rant about "use", I would not have spent a great deal of energy denying that Kenyans dope, even the fastest ones. There annual doping rates in WADA reports are troublingly high, but not unlike France or Italy, and less than Morocco, India, and Russia.

i got banned wrote:

i wish i was astute enough to search the LR files to find the rek/canova/apologist rants about EPO and kenyans

Did Canova stop posting here? I cannot see any recent EPO-does-not-work posts?!??

For Boulami and Chebet, I'm missing a good estimate for the "clean" time. So are you. (Hint: not 4%) For Sumgong, I was using her Shalane-aided Boston time personal best, in a race where 4 women beat the Boston course record. As we have seen from Ryan Hall, Moses Mosop and Geoffrey Mutai, Boston can be really fast, even faster than Berlin. If you want to do a medal win analysis, it needs more completeness than two cherry-picked examples. See for example the Sunday Times when they analyzed all Olympic and World Championship medal wins over 12 years.

rekrunner wrote:

If it was a "rek" rant about "use", I would not have spent a great deal of energy denying that Kenyans dope, even the fastest ones. There annual doping rates in WADA reports are troublingly high, but not unlike France or Italy, and less than Morocco, India, and Russia.

i got banned wrote:

i wish i was astute enough to search the LR files to find the rek/canova/apologist rants about EPO and kenyans

see kids this is what we call narcissistic behavior, in this example we call it "deflection", other times he uses "gaslighting", with choice of words like, belief,and fantasy, other times he will use "projection", this is when he chronically and unwilling sees his own shortcomings and uses everything in his power to avoid being held accountable for, examples are "i never said that", "you misunderstood me" and the classic "you are changing what i was trying to say to suite your needs".

be diligent because there are more to look for! he will use "blanket statements" and "generalizations", always calling someones statements, not matter how much facts back them up as "opinions", whereas his are FACTUAL truth even without any facts. "Moving the goal posts" is another one of his favorites, how can he ever be wrong or be shown to be wrong if HE gets to change the criteria of discussion? One more tactic is passive aggressive name calling, this is done by calling others out subtly on their intelligence, credentials, their facts, their proof......and on LR who they REALLY are, all the while never once doing the same (which is also called being a hypocrite).

if you notice, most EPO deniers/apologist DO these things, and if all else fails they will just result to having your comments deleted....remember kids with narcissists its all about covering up there deep rooted insecurities in themselves, thus they gain false empowerment and self esteem from bullying others, so be watchful.

- the poster formally known as m!ndweak

[quote]rekrunner wrote:

For Boulami and Chebet, I'm missing a good estimate for the "clean" time. So are you. (Hint: not 4%)

For Sumgong, I was using her Shalane-aided Boston time personal best, in a race where 4 women beat the Boston course record.

As we have seen from Ryan Hall, Moses Mosop and Geoffrey Mutai, Boston can be really fast, even faster than Berlin.

If you want to do a medal win analysis, it needs more completeness than two cherry-picked examples.

See for example the Sunday Times when they analyzed all Olympic and World Championship medal wins over 12 years.

[quote]

as you see here kids this has nice examples of "moving the goalposts", "deflecting", "gaslighting" and passive aggressively insulting me. lets break it down kids

I'm missing a good estimate for the "clean" time. So are you. (Hint: not 4%)

he starts off by doing the fake humble, then gaslights and passively mocks me with the word "clean", then does the passive aggressive insult with "So are you", then mocks me again with "4%". this mocking is defelting off the main points by trying to get readers to pay attention to his humble brag mocking, trying to make my "4%" the start of his target of discrediting me.

for some readers this "4%" makes no sense, and he hopes these noobs dont take the time to figure it out, but instead trust in his subtle humble brag attitude for the word of God. others will know that this "4%" is a reference to a percentage gained by taking EPO, research that has been posted over and over and over on LR has shown EPO can give a 3-10% gain depending on the study. so now being educated you can see how this subtle mockery is indeed much more cynical

next he decides to go with some facts i presented to him, but again humble mocks me and uses deflection and projection.

For Sumgong, I was using her Shalane-aided Boston time personal best, in a race where 4 women beat the Boston course record.

as you see he admits to the boston time and not sumgongs rio time, but instead of just admitting it, he makes it a subtle mockery that it was me who was ignorant and didnt understand, and that its was all due to shalane.

lastly as all narcissists do is the final projection and finishing with an insult proclaiming that the argument was about something completely different.

lets take a look

As we have seen from Ryan Hall, Moses Mosop and Geoffrey Mutai, Boston can be really fast, even faster than Berlin.

If you want to do a medal win analysis, it needs more completeness than two cherry-picked examples.

See for example the Sunday Times when they analyzed all Olympic and World Championship medal wins over 12 years.

he starts off again with facts to humble brag he knows more about boston than the average reader, hoping they side with him. he discredits my facts with a falsehood statement, the only time ever boston has been faster than berlin was when it has hurricane force winds, yet he chooses not to share this FACT, because it doesnt help his frail insecure argument. then he projects his own failures at ever providing FACTS and data by telling me its MY job to prove HIM right. this is classic kids, very text book indeed. then he finishes off with a bold statement with no links that validate his stated trump card. as if claiming the sunday times (sunday times of WHAT?) prove that his "opinion" is the word of God and if i actually did the statistical analysis and not cherry picked i would be enlightened. this finally sad try only exposes his deflection and moving the goal posts yet again. he had boldly demanded to see FAST times and EPO busts, i showed him 2, and he claims its now about medal wins. which before he was mocking medal wins and demanding fast times.

again a narcissist feels they are losing cause they think by changing the criteria aka "moving the goalposts" that it proves their superior intellect and knowledge.

no worries class isnt out yet, just sit back and dissect his rants yourself

- the poster formally known as m!ndweak

i got banned wrote:

...the only time ever boston has been faster than berlin was when it has hurricane force winds, yet he chooses not to share this FACT, because it doesnt help his frail insecure argument. then he projects his own failures at ever providing FACTS and data ...

To decide if a race is fast, I defer to the ARRS's computed Race Time Bias.

Besides 2014, and 2011, Boston was also fast in 2006, 1998, 1994, 1992, 1986, 1983, 1981, 1979, 1978, 1975, and 1974.

Boston Race Time Bias data (negative numbers are faster):

For comparison, here is Berlin:

i got banned wrote:

claiming the sunday times (sunday times of WHAT?)

You can find an example of a comprehensive medal win analysis covering 12 years here:

rekrunner wrote:

Once again, another non-running analogy. Whatever it reminds you of, it is not like the Catholic Church.

I don't talk much about prevalence or try to minimize prevalence -- I believe prevalence is high, because practice is high, because belief is high.

I can't minimize the effect until it has been properly quantified.

Being busted for doping does not help quantify effect.

Nor does talking about the Catholic Church or global warming.

In any case, Mr. English, this is not the definition of apologist.

Armstronglivs wrote:

Anyone who constantly seeks to minimise the prevalence of doping and its effects on performance is an apologist. You remind me of those who strenuously defend the Catholic Church against allegations of abuse, by minimising the charges against it - despite one priest after another, and even an occasional Cardinal, being revealed as an abuser. Like athletes being busted for doping.

For you, every post is a court case for the defence. No opposing argument survives your self-declared passion for "accuracy", as though you alone know what that is. For someone who says he is opposed to doping you do a fantastic job of exonerating them. Yes, that is an apologist.

Coevett wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IjWeAbCz6k&t=0s

Interestingly, a marathoner from either 1983 or 1987 WCs said he saw Jam up close and he swore that she was really a he. Perhaps intersex but I think it's time to pull out the old Roger Daltrey gag.

rekrunner wrote:

For what it's worth, I don't think I ever claimed Brits doped on a large scale.

As long time readers know, I don't believe Paula or Slow Mo doped.

The UK numbers are always small in any report I've ever seen about doping statistics by country in athletics.

Coevett wrote:

Amazing that a thread about yet another Kenyan getting busted about doping gets turned into a discussion by Casual Observski and his side kick rekrunner about West Germans (and British) being as bad as dopers as the GDR.

You've coached them both. A bit like Renato claiming all his athletes are clean, blatant bias.

i got banned wrote:

- once cause i brought up a certain mod admitted to using ROIDs

Heck! This is THE number one no no on LRC.

I know a guy that took eprex and he lowered in one year his 10k from 33.30 to 30.09 and HM from 1.11 to 1.05 and he will lower these times more. He was running and training since 2010 but EPO gave him so much boost. No joking

Runner and doctor wrote:

I know a guy that took eprex and he lowered in one year his 10k from 33.30 to 30.09 and HM from 1.11 to 1.05 and he will lower these times more. He was running and training since 2010 but EPO gave him so much boost. No joking

I don't doubt it one bit - ever heard of Cathal Lombard? In 18 months he improved with EPO from 30:35.96 (2002) to 27:33.53 (2004) and an Irish NR! That's a 3 min & 2 sec improvement! (~10%). So, here's a run-of-the-mill 10k guy who in a very short time goes on to set the Irish NR and get the Olympic "A" qualifier. Simply amazing (obviously a high-responder).

Check out both the 5000 & 10,000 graph on his IAAF progression chart...it's insane!

Interestingly, he says he didn't set out to win medals or to make money but that he just "wanted to be as competitive as I could and have an equal chance with everyone else."

Wow!...an "equal chance with everyone else." Sounds like EPO use was very prevalent back in that day.