Frank Meza 2:53:10 at LA Marathon (70 years old) unofficial time (just finished)

Fair enough, but we are still in a delicate area of needing incontrovertible evidence before pronouncing judgement.

Frankly (no pun intended...) I feel somewhat sorry for F.M. because if he is genuine, then his name will nevertheless have been dragged through the mud.

Further, as a track coach at Loyala, this saga might create a negative impact on Ftank's coaching duties.

As for the 'real' or false Gene Dykes posting here -hopefully we will be able to establish the identity of G.D. posting here, in solid defence of F.M.

Ghost in China

What would count as incontrovertible evidence, in your opinion?

How about not appearing in photos at locations where his chip says he is at? Would that count as incontrovertible evidence? If that happened at a respected marathon like Cal International 2014, would that count? Because that is what happened, and he was disqualified for cheating. Why do some posters here (not counting the assortment that are Frank himself) continue to talk as if he has never been caught, and continue to analyze his ridiculous splits as potential evidence only?

Well, Gene Dykes...the real or false now posting here said that Frank's splits are plausible, so if it really is,G.D. posting here, it gives some credibility to Frank and his achievements.

Ghost in China

If you go back and read my posts, I think you'll see that I am not vigorously defending him. There are many points of concern that I have said nothing about (DQ's, missed mats), some which I am remaining open-minded about (splits), and there are some which I am, however, debunking with energy because the reasons for doubt are groundless (generally about what 70 year olds are not capable of doing).

JustGene wrote:

Maybe I'm hoping he's the real deal so that we can really duke it out in a future race. Unless he gets injured, all the eyes on his next competitive race will surely tell the tale.

Thanks for joining in on this discussion. As you can see there is a lot of interest as, if genuine, Frank will be in a very select group of athletes.

I posted twice , on Page 3, and focused on his lack of photos. In most all the races I checked he is missing at at least one or more photo stations. Though I now realize that this is due to his preference to wear a bib belt which can swing round to one side or the other and so be missed by the photographers depending on which side of the course they are. Since then I have sat on the fence and just followed the posts.

I am hoping you can directly talk with Frank and, given your status in the sport, you may be able to influence him in a couple of directions to help prove his case, or expose him, whichever the case may be. Basically there are two things I would request:

1) If Frank is going to go for the record on a certified course in a sanctioned race please tell him to wear his bib prominently. Not only does he need to hit every timing mat but he also needs to be the most photogenic guy in the race.

2) He needs to compete in some shorter races, ideally track meets. Both yourself and Ed have YouTube videos of 1500m races etc. These can't be denied no matter how skeptical some one might be about marathon results. This summer the NCCWMA events are taking place in Toronto. There is are 1500 and 5000m track races as well as a 10K road race and cross country. If Frank were to compete there he would be highly visible. He would not need to seriously challenge any records as these distances are below his specialty. But a couple of good results in keeping with his marathon performances would go a long way towards validating his case.

Finally, Derek Murphy, the Marathon Investigation guy, has started looking into this. He started over a week ago so I assume he is being a thorough as possible. He probably has access to results and splits that we do not have. It may be worthwhile contacting him as I am sure he would like to discuss some thoughts with you before publishing whatever he has found.

I forget:

Link for NCCWMA event:

https://nccwma2019.com/

Since many contributors will read "plausible" as "iron clad proof that FM is not guilty", let me hasten to say that I remain firmly in the camp of "withholding judgment". As for my identity, I have posted on my timeline on Facebook about this, so I hope that helps dispel the doubts of some of you.

...to this question. You ran the Haddonfield 5k 3 weeks ago as I did. Who was the starter?

JustGene wrote:

Since many contributors will read "plausible" as "iron clad proof that FM is not guilty", let me hasten to say that I remain firmly in the camp of "withholding judgment". As for my identity, I have posted on my timeline on Facebook about this, so I hope that helps dispel the doubts of some of you.

JustGene also posted as a registered user at some point last year.

He posted on his FB page. JustGene is Mr. Dykes. The most troubling thing about FM is nobody saying the ran with him or beside him in a race. I have had multiple people claiming Ed or Gene running past them in races. Keep up the good work Gene and good luck at Boston.

Yep, just checked, and Gene D. is indeed well present on FB but, on the other hand could not find any trace of F.M. on F.B. -well not the one we are interested in (there are other F.Ms on FB).

So all of this gets more confusing, with the real G.D. offering benefit of doubt status to his 'friend' F.M. -not sure if they have actually met.

So really not sure what to think now, beyond the fact that Frank's splits look highly suspect, in addition to his 2014 CIM dq.

This whole saga is becoming really intriguing, worthy of Grisham and co.

Ghost in China

I find the lack of response to the Haddonfield question takes this thread from an 8 to an 11!

Haddonfield wrote:

I find the lack of response to the Haddonfield question takes this thread from an 8 to an 11!

I don’t. I was at the race and I couldn’t answer that question. I wasn’t really paying attention. I’m sure less than 5% of the runners who ran could answer it.

Oh, I think you just played your hand Herman Munster.

Gene has a crazy race schedule for 2019 but has announced there will be no record attempt this year.

https://www.facebook.com/gene.dykes.1/posts/2047635388638679

Wow, you really think I sit here in front of my computer all day hitting the refresh button hoping that a new message comes in? I was out running, of course! Followed by breakfast. I love trivia questions as much as anybody, but asking an old guy like me to remember names is a lost cause. I did spend some time with the race director just before the race because I forgot to enter the race (another old guy foible), and I'm totally embarrassed that I can't remember his name, but he was very kind in obtaining me a bib. I stored my outer wear with the SJ runners just to the right of the school entrance, and the results were posted on the right wall leading into the courtyard. Do my substitute answers work for you? I really didn't notice who started the race. I couldn't tell you if it was a gun, a siren, a whistle, or a verbal command that marked the start. Oh, there were a whole bunch of wheelchair pushers on the right side close to the starting line.

Ghost1 wrote:

Yep, just checked, and Gene D. is indeed well present on FB but, on the other hand could not find any trace of F.M. on F.B. -well not the one we are interested in (there are other F.Ms on FB).

So all of this gets more confusing, with the real G.D. offering benefit of doubt status to his 'friend' F.M. -not sure if they have actually met.

So really not sure what to think now, beyond the fact that Frank's splits look highly suspect, in addition to his 2014 CIM dq.

This whole saga is becoming really intriguing, worthy of Grisham and co.

Ghost in China

Ghost - all due respect to Gene Dykes, but you can't put too much weight on his tepid "endorsement" of Frank Meza. The weight of evidence against FM can't be ignored, or even mitigated, by GD not being willing to go on record as saying he thinks he cheated. As I noted earlier, the Argument from Authority Fallacy is commonplace, but it is still just that: a fallacy. GD can't eliminate FM's DQ from CIM 2014 just by saying "older people are capable of surprising things". Nor can he make those crazy splits OK with the right words.

Eliud Kipchoge could theoretically read this thread and say, eh, I don't see what the fuss is about; Frank Meza seems legit to me. Would that change anything? No! The point is, someone's ability as a runner doesn't give them a magical ability to assess all situations more accurately than anyone else.

A few things have changed in that schedule, and one is that I will probably accept Toronto's kind invitation granting me elite status for the race so that I can repeat my attempt there. I'll skip the Mountain Lakes 100, and I'm on the fence about the J&J 100K three weeks before Toronto, although it would make a nice "long run" for my marathon training.