mhmm another one to add in is if we talk about only high school is matt withrow.
mhmm another one to add in is if we talk about only high school is matt withrow.
1. Craig Virgin
2. Jim Spivey
3. Rick Wohluter
4. Evan Jaeger
5. Chris Derrick
6. Lukas V
7. Tom O'Hara (indoor WR mile record holder)
8. Don Sage
9. Jorge Torres
1O. Tim Broe
11. Mark Deady
12. Dave Merrick
Arkansas additions:
Clyde Scott - Olympic Silver Medal in 36? hurdles
Daniel Lincoln - top 10 in 08 Olympic Steeplechase, American Record Holder
Illinois - don't forget Mike Conley Sr. - in addition to being a being the greatest combined horizontal jumper in history, was a great 200 meter runner as well
Arkansas additions:
Clyde Scott - Olympic Silver Medal in 36? hurdles
Daniel Lincoln - top 10 in 08 Olympic Steeplechase, American Record Holder
Illinois - don't forget Mike Conley Sr. - in addition to being a being the greatest combined horizontal jumper in history, was a great 200 meter runner as well
Yes, but considering Conley a "runner" is quite a stretch. Ernie Banks was quite fast in the 1950's.
troglodyte wrote:
1. Craig Virgin
2. Jim Spivey
3. Rick Wohluter
4. Evan Jaeger
5. Chris Derrick
6. Lukas V
7. Tom O'Hara (indoor WR mile record holder)
8. Don Sage
9. Jorge Torres
1O. Tim Broe
11. Mark Deady
12. Dave Merrick
My vote...post HS:
1. Craig Virgin...no contest
2. Jim Spivey
3. Rick Wohluter
4. Evan Jaeger
5. Mike Durkin....No one came up with this guy?
6. Tom O'Hara
7. Jorge Torres
8. Tim Broe
9. Chris Derrick
High school is great and all, but come on..
Lukas did something in HS only 4 guys had ever done before in addition to winning nationals twice in cross country. Everyone hates LV, I know, but his accomplishments are hard to ignore. If the wind did not pick up the last 300m at Detweiler, he would have broken Virgin's course record.
Durkin probably belongs on the list, agreed. The guy was a horse. Ken Popejoy was from same era. Both were national class for several years.
Hard to see placing 13:04/27:2X guy Derrick below Torres.
Deady was 1988 Olympian at 1500m.
Sage was NCAA 1500m champion as a freshman. 4:00.39 mile in high school, not shabby.
West Virginia...
Maggie Drazba girls
Jacob Burcham boys
we don't have many superstar athletes and these two are the best we ever had...
troglodyte wrote:
Lukas did something in HS only 4 guys had ever done before in addition to winning nationals twice in cross country. Everyone hates LV, I know, but his accomplishments are hard to ignore. If the wind did not pick up the last 300m at Detweiler, he would have broken Virgin's course record.
Durkin probably belongs on the list, agreed. The guy was a horse. Ken Popejoy was from same era. Both were national class for several years.
Hard to see placing 13:04/27:2X guy Derrick below Torres.
Deady was 1988 Olympian at 1500m.
Sage was NCAA 1500m champion as a freshman. 4:00.39 mile in high school, not shabby.
You are incorrect. I don't hate Lukas Verzbicas, and actually I believe he is inspiration to many.
I agree with you but if you started a LV thread "Lukas V is a great inspiration" you would incite a lot of vitriol on here. You have a kid who ran 3:59/8:29 in high school and some people don't rate him as one of the state's greatest runners. I'm not making this shit up.
I did say post high school... Jorge won NCAAs, so that's where I'm coming from. Definitely not an LV hater, but I certainly did not see Michael Granville on any CA list. I'm not making this shit up.
So if Jim Ryun got hit by a car during his freshman year at KU, you would leave him off the Kansas list? Interesting.
Since there is now an Illinois sub-thread, I'll take us farther down the rabbit trail...and try to bring some objectivity.
First, I assume we're talking 800 meters and up? Second, we have to decide if we're talking high school or post high school.
If we're talking high school, Verzbicas is the answer. I know there are some who'd get upset with that, but he's got it all. He's just outside of the very best Detweiller times (on a reconfigured course that those in the know say runs a few seconds longer than the old version that Virgin ran on...but is exactly the same as Derrick ran on), he's got multiple national XC Championships, he's got indoor track titles, outdoor track titles and his mile and 2 mile times beat all other contenders pretty comfortably.
After Verzbicas probably comes Virgin, but depending how you weight things like Detweiller times, number of IHSA XC titles, FL/NXN titles, track times, IHSA track titles, and national track titles, you come up with some combination of Virgin, J. Torres, Don Sage, Chris Derrick, Jim Spivey, Matt Withrow, Dave Merrick, Tom Graves, etc. Any real disagreement on where to rank people from that list probably stems from people weighting things differently than others, or people getting too far into hypotheticals (ie, Virgin had no Footlocker title, but likely would have had it existed at the time).
I'm a 30 year old guy who ran in Illinois, so I fully admit my awareness is much greater of guys who ran from about 1996 onwards. So while I know my history fairly well, I'm not perfect and might have made some oversights. If I missed some people, enlighten me. Or if I'm unaware of some factors that would affect how I rank someone, feel free to let me know.
Now, for post HS, the list changes quite a bit. Guys like Wohlhulter, Jager and Broe, who probably didn't quite make the previous top ten, move up. Spivey moves up. Guys like Torres and Sage move down a little bit. Guys like Withrow get dropped from the conversation. And of course, Verzbicas is out. That's nothing against him, but so far his performances since HS include nothing of note. I'd love to see him recover to the point where he's competitive at that level, but so far, he's not there.
And of course, there's still a lot of untapped potential. Who knows how good Jager will get? Or Derrick, who right now is probably slightly ahead of Torres and right behind Broe (equal or faster times, but not the USA titles...yet).
My attempt at a top 10...
High school accomplishments...really, I wouldn't argue if anyone wanted to reorder my spots 3 through 8
1. Lukas Verzbicas - 3:59/8:29 and 13:54. 2 x IHSA champ, 2 x FL champ, NXN champ, multiple indoor and outdoor national track titles, 8:40 and 14:06 indoors.
2. Craig Virgin - 8:40 and 13:50, multiple IHSA titles, probably would have won FL had it existed, and until Verzbicas came along, you'd get in trouble if you didn't
rank him top in Illinois.
3. Don Sage - just barely ahead of Torres. 4:00/8:44 and 14:03, 2nd behind one of the best FL performances in history, and would have won 3 IHSA XC titles had it not been for Torres. This guy's senior track season was about as good as they got until Webb the next year. His 1600/3200 double was about as good as they got until Fernandez.
4. Jorge Torres - 3 time IHSA champ, 14:00, a FL title, only 4 time FL finalist. He had everything but blazing track times, otherwise he'd be up with Virgin.
5. Tom Graves - 13:56 at Detweiller, beating Spivey, and won everything for several years. Better track times than Torres, but not as good as the first 3 guys. Not as many XC titles as Torres (IHSA or national) or he'd have been ranked ahead of him. I'd have no problem switching those two places.
6. Chris Derrick - 13:52 at Detweiller and 13:55 5k, plus a second at Footlocker. If he'd won FL or not gotten sick and missed most of his senior track season, he'd probably be ranked higher.
7. Dave Merrick - A lot like Graves, but just a little bit slower and he gets credit for doing it first
8. Jim Spivey - 1:49 and 4:06, plus finishing right behind Graves in 14:00 at Detweiller. Kind of like Sage in that he'd have more titles if not for having run right behind one of the very best.
9. Matt Withrow - A FL title against a heralded field is his big claim to fame, but also won the IHSA triple-crown by winning the XC title as well as the 1600 and 3200. Times were nothing super impressive, and he doesn't have the 2-3 years of state titles that some of the others do.
10. I'm not sure who to put here. Stephen Pifer comes to mind with his IHSA triple crown and a collection of fast 3200/1600 one-day doubles. But I'm sure there are probably a handful of others just as deserving, or moreso. Durkin? Popejoy? Dave Ayoub? Maybe Jager, who ran 14:07, almost pulled off the triple-crown in 2007, and in 2006 contributed to a 7:40 3200 relay victory that is technically a state meet record (though faster times have been run in other competitions, and at 4x880).
It gets a lot harder based on post high school accomplishments, especially since several of them are still in the early stages of their pro careers. Many of these
spots are debatable depending on what one values more.
1. Craig Virgin - It's hard to argue with a pair of world XC titles, and his track times still stand up today, at least his 10,000. Until Derrick runs 27:10 anyway.
2. Rick Wohlhuter - maybe he should be farther up...an Olympic medal, world records, and still standing American records and 800 times that would be among our best today.
3. Jim Spivey - 3:49 and a long, successful career of middle distance running, including some major international finals.
4. Evan Jager - American record steeple and sixth at the Olympics as well as a fast 5k and all-around high end performances
5. Tim Broe - fast times at steeple and 5k as well as decent 1500/3k times. An Olympic final and a slew of USA titles ranging from XC, indoor and outdoor
6. Mike Durkin - fast mile times for his day, and made two Olympic teams, despite essentially retiring and starting from scratch. I didn't know of him before this thread, but he seems an all-around baller kind of guy.
7. Chris Derrick - is actually already faster than most the other guys at 5k and has a lot of consistently fast performances...13:08/27:31, IAAF WC teams, and a USA XC title. He doesn't have the national titles, Olympic qualifiers or American records that the three guys in front of him have, but I think with time he'll earn his way into the top 3 or 4 spots on this list.
8. Jorge Torres - Won an NCAA XC title after being 2nd and 3rd the previous years, made a WC final back when that was something Americans didn't do and made at least one Olympic team. Was never quite as lethal on the track as others and didn't quite seem to be able to run with the generation he helped inspire.
9. Don Sage - an NCAA 1500 title and a big ol' number of All-American runs at the NCAA XC meet.
10. Not sure...I don't know enough about the post high school careers of guys like Popejoy, Merrick or Graves. Maybe someone needs to enlighten me about them, or about someone else I may have missed. It's certainly possible someone could deserve to be ahead of Torres or Sage, or even further up without my knowledge...
Steve Prefontaine, Olympic Champion for the United States.
Ron Clarke,
Craig Mottram,
Rob DeCastella,
Rick Mitchell,
Steve Moneghetti,
Ralph Doubell,
John Landy,
Debbie Flintoff,
Raelene Boyle.
troglodyte wrote:
So if Jim Ryun got hit by a car during his freshman year at KU, you would leave him off the Kansas list? Interesting.
Now you're being silly. Comparing a high school Olympian and last American to hold the mile WR to Lukas?
Deena Drossin
Meb Kefleghizi
Ryan Hall
Desiree Davila
Jordan Hasay
Mary Decker
Nick Arcianaga
Ruth Wysocki
Sara Bei
Steve Scott
you missed one wrote:
10. Not sure...I don't know enough about the post high school careers of guys like Popejoy, Merrick or Graves. Maybe someone needs to enlighten me about them, or about someone else I may have missed. It's certainly possible someone could deserve to be ahead of Torres or Sage, or even further up without my knowledge...
It's a solid comprehensive list. You obviously have done your homework.
Tom O'Hara was world indoor mile record holder. He ran for Loyola. Say that to yourself a few times. World indoor mile record holder.
AARON TEMPLETON for 10-eye-c
troglodyte wrote:
It's a solid comprehensive list. You obviously have done your homework.
Tom O'Hara was world indoor mile record holder. He ran for Loyola. Say that to yourself a few times. World indoor mile record holder.
I just read up on O'Hara. I'd say on the post-high school list he should be #3 or #4, and everyone else moves down. I'm not sure about where/if he falls on the HS list. It's not easy to find any detailed info on Illinois high school athletes pre-Dave Merrick.