5000m World Record Splits: A Progression

Coeovett, I fatigue to read what you write, because too complicated for my English.

However, if I well understood your post, you speak of David Sharpe and Curtis Robb as examples of European talented runners who quitted for the "widespread doping" of Africans at the beginning of the 90 years.

I well remember both of them. They were, of course , good (but not exceptional) talents, but to think they could reach the same level of Coe, Cram and Ovett seems something far from the reality.

Sharpe, born in 1967, had PB of 1'43"98 in Zurich in 1992 (already 25) that gives him the position 129 all-time, and produced weak results in 1500m (3'42"7) and Mile (3'59"02).

He had a lot of injuries, and of sure Africans were not the reason because he stopped.

"My shins are killing me now", he explained in 1996, and the injuries were the reason because he stopped still young.

About Curtis Robb (born in 1972), he was a very elegant athlete, and, looking at him, everybody supposed he could be one of the best. But talent is not only "elegance" and biomechanical perfection : is also bioenergetics system, and mind, and Curtis finished his career with PB of 1'44"92 (position 286 in the list all-time) and 3'38"56 (position ... 1116 !), both in 1993.

To put them in the same pot with the 3 stars of UK means to make them the most overrated athletes in the world.

"left-wing black supremacist racists"??

Wtf is wrong with you?

Nobody on here supports or condones the atrocity you linked to.

It has nothing to do with Kenya or Ethiopian athletics.

You're being f'ing ridiculous

David Sharpe won gold at the World Junior championships in 1986 in the 800m and finished 5th in the 1500m in the same championships (Wilfred Kirochi and Peter Rono won gold and silver). He hardly ran a 1500m or Mile after that. He was famous for his lack of hard work and rarely trained for more than 20 miles a week. When Cram retired, he basically stopped training to any meaningful extent, yet as you say, managed to run a 1:43 which was only a glimpse of his potential. Cram expected him to be his successor and many rated him an equal or better talent (he's been mentioned as a wasted talent many times on this forum). He ran a 3:46 1500m days after his 17th birthday which together with his 5th place in the World Juniors suggests a potential there that was clearly never explored. You'd have to ask Sharpe why he had so little motivation to fulfill such a great talent but I suspect a feeling of competing against cheats might well be one of them.

Curtis Rob was an exceptional talent who tried to combine elite athletics with studying 80 hours a week as a medical student. In the end, he chose his medical career.

rekrunner wrote:

The contradictory assumptions surrounding doping are not mine, and seem to always morph to support a scenario designed to prove me wrong. I've been told anti-doping is so effective in 5 continents, that doping was effectively impossible, in order to explain the slow to no progress of non-Africans. Then I've been told that ABP is so generous, and micro-dosing gives full benefits, while not triggering ABP flags, allowing most of the dopers to escape detection, and to counter my "micro-dosing means micro-benefits" arguments.

"Micro-dosing" EPO alone and not in combo with androgens and/or GH could mean micro-benefits. Recall the Guardian article with the unnamed "high-profile" Ethiopian female who said she was using a cocktail of EPO & HGH, though the article doesn't indicate if it was micro-doses of EPO. In addition, the Russian doping machine was using EPO & blood doping in combo with either oxandrolone ("Ox") or the old fashion turinabol. If either one worked better by itself, why would the Russian doping doctors want to use them in combination? Synergistic effects maybe? ?

On the ABP generosity you mentioned: to reach the upper parameters of an individual Hgb it's going to be much more than micro-doses. On the example given on a module reference Tucker's site, the baseline Hgb can increase ~20% to the upper parameter. Ashenden's study showed micro-doses only raised Hgb mass 10%, but well below the upper parameters. Higher doses are going to be needed to approach the ~20% level significantly increasing the risk of getting caught OOC with longer glow times, which may have been the cases with Sumgong and Cardoso. But you're right: with a ~20% allowed Hgb increase - that's very generous. And if OOC testing is weak or the athlete or their coach has connections in high places, then the athlete will escape detection and it's full speed ahead. ?

High-Octane Dopers wrote:

"Micro-dosing" EPO alone and not in combo with androgens and/or GH could mean micro-benefits. Recall the Guardian article with the unnamed "high-profile" Ethiopian female who said she was using a cocktail of EPO & HGH, though the article doesn't indicate if it was micro-doses of EPO.

I would venture to suggest that given its still low rate of detectability, hgh does alot of heavy lifting in the cheater's cocktail given the benefits and the fact that regular blood testing is needed for detection, something infrequent in Africa.

is this a joke ???

abebe won 2 M golds in '64 & '68

Keino broke 5k & 3k records in '60s, the 7'39 crushing it by 7s, that when ron was telephoned result, he thought it was a connection error !!!

he then ran this at ~ 7,400' with multiple 10ks, or almost, 5ks & 1500s in his legs in addition to having to run with his kit bag for ~ mile to stadium when bus got caught in traffic

What are you talking about? Yes, Kenya and East Africa had always been dominant for decades. This is why Coe, Ovett, and Cram never won Gold medals or broke world records. Oh yes, I forgot - it was all down to 6 lane tracks, blood doping, boycotts, and fortuitous drafting!

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:There is one obvious exception, the mile in Sweden but again they were (semi) neutral. Could it be military conditioning isn't good for athletics?

no

running is

Interestingly, the sea level 100m effectively stopped improving after 1964 until Ben Johnson

no

Hines was definitely < 10 in games, i doubt altitude helped at all

Steve Williams in '77 zurich in that utterly crap downpour weather looked worth 9.90 - 9.93 in 0 wind with 80 - 90F

top 1/2 dozen guys in any 1 year currently can if given semblance of good pacing

have you not followed sport past 1/2-decade ???

did you not comprehend 1500 race of Asbel 3'36.6 ???

plenty guys there also < 3'30

'16 had excuse in olympic year & only fool trains to peak for circuit race TT when only 1 race counts

this year had injuries in Kwemoi or Cheruyiot peaking in stockholm on hugely windy day but offering murderous kick

nonsense

did you not learn anything from repeatedly being told of Komen in berlin-'97 when running 3'46.3 off horrendous start, baulked twice at/near start, losing speed, getting p!ssed off, charging straight right into 3rd lane !!!, running huge extra distance there & last bend in total, then making suicidal sprint !!! to get to pole behind pacer by 2nd bend, then effectively leader of race as pacers too far ahead, then finishing with a 54+ !!! after all these catastrophes

"perfect race" here for Komen was

3'43+

by whom ?

offer specificity not generalised banalitiy

is this a joke ?

how many times has canova told you there is peanuts for pacing nowdays so it is crap !

how often has bell-time in a 1500 been reached by a pacer in 2'33+ in past dozen years ???

is this a joke ???

where were huge number of africans on circuit in '60s & '70s ???

when they started to appear in '80s, what happened to clockings ???

is this a joke ???

do you have any clue about how much course of epo wouda cost in '90s ???

it was branded drug & to get to some remarkable performances you believe wouda cost probably $10,000 per year !!!

where were these 3rd world guys getting $10,000 per year from epo when manager's cut wouda been likely to have been just a handful of $1,000s

what manager wouda been stoopid enough to lose $1,000s per athlete per year on epo ???

what prize-money was available back then ???

is this a joke ???

do you have any clue about the cost of doping in '90s with epo ???

clearly not

see above for some basic economics

learn $10,000 per year

as for no out of season testing, it was instituted in '89

performed by iaaf

iaaf's job to test runners

then offer to contribute to pay for it

what middle distance runners ???

who are these Kenyan middle distance runners you claim ???

it's nonsense

as for distance, women's M champ tested +ve, but not in her win

the only logical belief was that she believed she needed epo to challenge paula's wind-assisted/fully-paced wr, so she decided to dope after rio

no

learn some science

epo helps Kenyans but to lesser degree as already huge genetic hemoglobins, so same dose effect as on a westerner is much smaller

is this a joke ?

what Kenyans ??

utterly laughable !!!

offer full story

then offer it for '12 when after rounds he ran a genuine 1'41.73

nijel has been injured for past few years & offered nothing between '14 - '17

when was this "avoidance" story alluding to ?

what is this "historically" nonsense ???

how about they test blood tests from '80s on guys with toxoplasmosis +ves for evidence of blood transfusions ?

why not start back then ?

dig into your pocket & contribute if you feel some injustice is occuring

is this a joke ???

what part of crap weather did you not comprehend ???

it was utterly miserable weather for 800 & not much better for 1500

the 400 final was so bad, that wade said he was "freezing" & ~ "coudn't feel his legs moving until 200m"!!!

do you not understand anything about conditions ???

no

they don't

it's nonsense

weather wrecked WC

is this a joke ???

1/2-dozen+ guys in synthetic track era have run 3'26 or it's similar in 3'43+ if given anywhere close to ideal pace, route-1 & drafting to bell & fully rested for race, including morceli & aouita in his 3'29.67 with huge amount on bends with 52.7 finish & possibly Maree in his epic 3'29.77 on wet track with wide running on 1st lap & genuine 53.3 low on clock for opener, all hugely tired from a 3'32+ just 44 hours before & a zurich 5k few days before

Silas 3'27.6 off trip in 1st lap & execrable 1'53+ at 800, shouda been 3'25-high off even-pace

plenty of guys have run run 3'26-intrinsic

as for 7'20.00, it is only worth IMO ~ 3'27.2

it is a poor comparison, only poor because of now infrequent 3ks & utterly crap pacing when 5'00 is all an organiser will offer when Komen got 4'53 on his tired day

is this a joke ???

none of these times are anywhere close to equal value !

can you not think of better equivalents considering paucity of 3k & 5ks compared to 1500 & greater opportunity for pace variations, wide running on bends, lapping, etc ???

is this joke ???

why woud any follower of sport want times to become slower ???

i'm sorry, but 100% of knowledgeable fans want quicker times

as you don't want them, it shows you have have no knowledge of the sport

is this a joke ???

easily 1/2 dozen guys couda gone 3'26+ in synthetic track era & near enough same number shoud have run 7'20 or better given ideal runs

you have to get down to ideal runs of 3'24+ or 7'16+ to even dream of epo being a factor, but guys couda run those absolutely clean from post-war

utter nonsense !!!

did you not see link in previous post :

Komen's 1500pb then was nonsense 3'34 but it was narrow loss to hicham who won in 3'33

it is quite obvious it was tactical 1500 as hicham never did tactical 1500s from '95 & already ideally was in 3'28+ shape in '96 for only race that mattered to him in 4y

that means Komen was virtually certainly in 3'28/3'29 shape in '96 & above berlin mile of '97 showed he'd moved to 3'43+ !!!

so to believe you can't run 3'28 off 1'46 is nonsense

contra argument is that if you seriously believe hicham was only in 1'46+ shape when he ran 3'26.00 with 53.2 finish, then you have absolutely no clue at all about the sport

have you learnt nothing ?

it all depends upon 400 speed

52 wont do it, but if it is 50 let alone 49, then you can

can't you ever learn most basic logic ?

is this a joke ???

that calculator called mo 3'28 whereas you were proud to spout drivel beforehand he woud never break 3'30

you have absolutely no clue about the sport

no

they aren't

at top end of Africans their engine efficiency are all virtually same, it only depends if they are V6, V8...V12 to add to engine

like mo did with 50.8 speed in a 5k or Korir will show next year with 43.34R or 44-flat open speed

is this a joke ???

do you have no clue about physiology ???

at top end, there is no difference in efficiency of Africans, it comes down only to relative V6...V.12 depending on size

utterly laughable !!!

a total absolute joke !!!

the iaaf's main stats guy who has sole the statue in canastota is a guy who i was shocked was still alive, but is & is over 100 year ole !!!

if iaaf stats is still "run" or "influenced" by 100+y ole quercertani, then how the hell woud any actual innovative practices such as "lines of fit" be ever considered ???

if he was "einstein-calibre"as his role mandated, then obviously he wouda all done it decades ago & lines of fit woud been established in '60s, at latest in '70s

quercetani is no einstein & he certainly hasn't seemed to have moved analysis on in iaaf

following on,

impress universe

which of those "legit bodies" claimed mo couda run 3'28 in '13 ???

Coevett wrote:

is this a joke ???

abebe won 2 M golds in '64 & '68

Keino broke 5k & 3k records in '60s, the 7'39 crushing it by 7s, that when ron was telephoned result, he thought it was a connection error !!!

he then ran this at ~ 7,400' with multiple 10ks, or almost, 5ks & 1500s in his legs in addition to having to run with his kit bag for ~ mile to stadium when bus got caught in traffic

What are you talking about? Yes, Kenya and East Africa had always been dominant for decades. This is why Coe, Ovett, and Cram never won Gold medals or broke world records. Oh yes, I forgot - it was all down to 6 lane tracks, blood doping, boycotts, and fortuitous drafting!

So what happened to the post pointing out that Bikila won the 1960 & 1964 Olympic marathons? Who could have objected to that?

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Did you say 18 year old!

DATE OF BIRTH 11 MAY 1994

5000 Metres 12:47.53 Paris Saint-Denis (Stade de France) 06 JUL 2012

Oh well that proves it.

East African birth dates are a joke everyone knows it except you.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

DATE OF BIRTH 11 MAY 1994

5000 Metres 12:47.53 Paris Saint-Denis (Stade de France) 06 JUL 2012

Oh well that proves it.

East African birth dates are a joke everyone knows it except you.

Well of course it is a joke, there is no way an 18 year old is running that fast.

casual obsever wrote:

Coevett wrote:

It assumes that the entire world of athletics dopes everywhere at all times.

Well, not the entire world, but the majority. Read up on our history.

Also, that should not be surprising, considering the huge rewards and low risk.

Then, unless someone thinks that being hugely talented goes automatically hand in hand with having an impeccable character, talented superstars dope as often as want-to-be stars. Or more, according to Seppelt's data, because they have more to gain, e.g. wins,, thus money and fame, than also-rans who fight to make it to the final.

In conclusion: to set a WR, you need to be a great talent, optimize your training, and be a high responder.

This is what we don't know. I'm not someone who thinks drugs don't make a difference, I think they certainly can, and do make large contributions to performance when used effectively.

However, I also think there is a chance some of the WRs or great athletes could be clean. It's not like drugs take 4:40 athletes and turn them into 3:43 runners. Maybe a 3:52 guy in a 3:43 guy. Combine this with not knowing what is possible for outliers, and I just don't think we can know. Who is to say someone of freak talent, a combination of efficiency/FRC/VO2/and utilization not yet seen, can't run a 3:43 mile clean?

It's possible for me to envision a situation where a hypothetical athlete comes up and is good, they train hard and find themselves among the best in the world, then find with another little bit of work they are dominant. There would always be the potential to dope, but I suspect someone who could run 12:35 clean might be the person who wouldn't dope. If you got there clean, or felt like you could, then you might hold off on the drugs even if they are offered because all else equal you don't want the risk of doping and being caught...and if you can set the WR and be a dominant athlete there is less of an incentive to dope then from someone on the outside looking to crack the top 5 or medal.

My views can be summed up as being willing to bet the strong majority, at least 80-90%, of the top athletes are doping. I also think there is a possibility that the occasional very good or top athlete could be clean for the reasons listed. Current distance WRs, with possible exceptions of 800/M I would think likely doped given what we know about the Moroccan culture and Ethiopian lack of testing at the time.

800 I think there is an outside chance Rudisha is just a freak talent, and could see the same with Kipchoge, he's about as likely a guy to be ethical if there exists such a man.

casual obsever wrote:

And of course my post, proving the inconsistent moderation here, got deleted as well. That then again proves the inconsistent moderation here. Tee hee.

Keep deleting, mods!

Lol

no

they aren't

not perfect run in 70F with 0 wind

just barely dipping into 1'50

i always thought Noah was most talented 800/1k/1500 ever in synthetic track era but Bernie's low-mileage 3'26 with huge kick & tripped slightly by hicham on last bend gets him ~ there

Bernie couda run everything Noah couda have for 800/1k/1500, as well as Asbel who set then age-19 WR, here, who if he'd run it route-1 , with no extra wide bend-running off 49-high with that incredible finish !!!, wouda certainly hung onto 1'41-mid/high, all this at 19y off 1500 training !!!

7'20.0 is worth 3'27-low

it's soft

get a clue about rubbish 5'00 pacing at best now when 4'53 pacer needed

what is this drivel ???

scrap what ???

iaaf are scrapping nothing

utterly clueless

zillionth time :

above your pay-grade

beg/borrow/steal a neurone which allows you to digest above

utter drivel

edris/chelimo & even tired mo were in ~ 12'40 - 12'45 shape in london final

if mo had skipped the 10k, he wouda been in more like 12'40-flat shape & won the kick

their problem

but it isn't stopping endless supply of fast Kenyans

try Korir 43.34R worth 44-flat open, faster hugely than euro record :

yup, so he epo'ed on new generation epo

his line of fit has been hard to figure as so damn fast speed

i usually go with

~ 46.50 / 1'41.75

->

2'10.71

3'25.66

to

~ 46.25 / 1'41.50

->

2'10.50

3'25.62

that prelim run vid has long been removed, but it was essentially Noah's shape in Rieti-'99, but with 1 huge caveat :

Noah was clean

calculo wrote:

...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNJvjal6FbY

....

Amazing that in a race full of 'cheating Africans", and souped-up doping era, only the top 3 guys broke 3:50.

None of them from the UK, of course, those kids were all at home playing video games and soccer.

Where were these hordes of cheating milers who couldn't beat Galen Rupp's best time?

if they are screwed or kaput from injury

renato

i'll keep it simple :

why the fuuuck he run such crap in '13 onwards when he looked upto 12'35 shape in paris-'12 ???

yes, that is 12'35-shape NOT 12'45

above

so how did he get fuuucked up so badly from ~ 12'35 shape in '12 to nowhere after ???

i was watching athens marathon last 2km to stadium

what shape baldini in a berlin ???

then answer if Tergat had not not got stitch from wrong water, or just as important, Kenya not allowing Felix Limo or Evans Rutto to run, what chance you have given baldini against certainly Rutto, the toughest man i ever saw run a M until the legendary Sammy or Geoffrey, or against Limo, who just ran away from you before you even thought long about question ?

'04 Athens : baldini v Rutto & Limo ???

renato

i have some respect for you, but the above is drivel

you are not a medic nor have required crunchingly tight-logic-math analysis from your forever "fairweather" tales

it is impossible to run slower from self-transfusion done properly

- not more than 1 - 2 pints at time

- hugely reduced training in interim whilst anemic & awaiting upto 120 day rebuild of Hb with normal food, but perhaps down to 60 - 90 days with lotta iron tablets or infusions of iron, but constipation & risk of perhaps liver death due to haemosiderosis

the nonsense you suggest above is clearly because your chumps got greedy & trained too hard &/too early off likely 80/90 Hb, meaning just fatigue/loss not gains

- your "failures" were due to being greedy & taking too much blood off &/or training too hard too early

absolutely nothing to do with the method

theoretically, it is fool-proof

learn some medicine & logic woudn't hurt...

why don't you answer some questions ?

- '04 - baldini vs fit Tergat + Limo + granite-man Rutto

who wins ?

- '06 - Eliud runs 26'54WR-road beating tadesse but too much drop

what 10k track shape he was in 2"00"24 ?

- '08 - what 10k track shape was Sammy in peking when he ran 26'41 in '05 at 18y off 26'16 pace to 6k !!!, when his coach said this was a shock as Sammy was not in top shape ! & not expected to run anywhere close to 27-flat !!!, but even off that, if he had run slower to 6k, he shouda run 26'30 ! at even pace, & not in in top-shape for year at 18y & not in peking shape of 3y later when fully grown ?

- what 10k track shape was Geoffrey in crushing 2"05-flat ?

- what 10k track shape was your boy Kiprop winning Kenyan trials in eugene in 27-flat in tactical race or ~ 27'26-nairobi prior ?

- what 10k track shape was Komon when running 26'44 off 2'36 & 13'19 ?

- what 10k track shape was Kamwo running 27'11 in nairobi if at sea-level ?

- what 10k track shape was Kamwo running 59-flat in worst weather ever seen in a road-race !!! & he fell over 3-times at start when run over by field, but picked hinself & charged off running 4-low mile to catch-up & guy watching this next to him at start, adola, the debut 2"03 guy in current berlin said "Kamwo has power, he has REAL power" ?

LM. I fully agree with you.

Thinking that "In conclusion: to set a WR, you need to be a great talent, optimize your training, and be a high responder",

is simply NOT TRUE, if we don't add another word at the end of the statement :

"To set a WR, you need to be a great talent, optimize your training, and be a high responder TO ALTITUDE TRAINING"

I don't consider myself the best coach in the World or a Wizard (somebody else decided himself to be the "Wizard"...), but of sure somebody with more than 50 years of experience in coaching, and the FACT is that athletes whom I followed personally bettered some WR (currently the WR remaining from athletes I coached are : 3000m steeple men with Shaheen in 7'53"63, 25000m and 30000m on track with Moses Mosop in 1:12:26 and 1:26:47) completely CLEAN.

This for me is enough for showing we don't need any doping for being the best, when you have great talent, follow in serious and continuous way a good personal training program, and live and train in altitude.

This is also the reason because, in spite of the insults of Mindweak, I continue to think that for this type of athletes EPO doesn't give ANY advantage : THEY ARE HIGH RESPONDERS TO ALTITUDE.

Too frequently somebody continue to show some article about EPO, repeating the same stories. We know EPO works with the following people :

a) Everybody not trained (or little trained)

b) Everybody training at sea level

c) Not responders to training in altitude

Maybe that also a high responders to altitude, in some period of his career, is not well trained because coming from a resting period (for example, for some injury). In this case, if the athlete is bad advised, there is the possibility he/she took EPO for shortening the period of BASIC TRAINING in order to reach a BASIC LEVEL OF AEROBIC POWER in short time (level that must be at the start of the SPECIFIC PERIOD, when there is no EPO, for a high responder to altitude, that can give the same results of a perfect training, and it's not possible to cumulate the two effects). This is the case of Rita Jeptoo (I don't know about Jemima Sumgong), who NEVER took EPO before her last marathon in Chicago, when coming from a long injury.

For definition, the best MUST be well trained, otherwise can't be at the top, and this is the reason because the best Kenyan and Ethiopians are clean : at their level of specific talent and of training, EPO can't work. If they are in some period of little training, EPO can work for them too, but in this case they ARE NOT IN THE SHAPE FOR THEIR BEST PERFORMANCE.

So, I NEVER SAID EPO DOESN'T WORK WITH KENYANS, and the research of WADA about Kenyan and Scottish boys with average 9'30" and 11'05" for 3000m was a total bullshit and a waste of money and time, showing they had NO CLUE about training. So, please, don't show this bullshit again, in order to demonstrate... NOTHING.

When you speak about Maroccans, Ramzi and Brahim Boulami in particular (but we can add other athletes never officially doped : Khalid Boulami and Lahlafi in first line), WE FORGET THEY NEVER TRAINED IN HIGH ALTITUDE (Ifrane is about 1600m, and training there is not very much demanding), AND THEY NEVER TRAINED WITH LONG DISTANCES FAST.

If we have the opportunity to follow 3 months of training of the best athletes, we can understand IF they take EPO or not from their training. When we see athletes continuing with very intensive lactic sessions every time, WITHOUT RUNNING LONG AND FAST FOR MAINTAINING THEIR AEROBIC LEVEL (with intensive lactic workouts the LT goes down, and, after the first period of high shape, the shape itself start to decrease), AND ARE ABLE TO MAINTAIN OR TO IMPROVE THEIR SHAPE, it means that the Aerobic Support is artificial, so they take some doping for vectoring Oxygen.

This is one of the reasons because I think El Guerrouj was clean : he still has ALL the records in the circuits in Ifrane, till the distance of 23 km (for longer distances, all the record are of Gharib). This means Hicham was an athlete RUNNING MILEAGE AT FAST SPEED, while the most part of other Maroccan didn't do.

The final group are athletes NOT RESPONDING to altitude training. If they can't have any advantage from running in altitude, of course they could have advantages from some blood doping. However, I don't think this type of athletes can really have the talent for being among the best in the world, and that's the reason because there are so few top athletes, in middle and especially long distances, caught for doping : BECAUSE THEY ARE CLEAN.

Several times I spoke about the EFFECTS OF TRAINING IN ALTITUDE, for high responders.

First thing : WE SPEAK ABOUT ATHLETES HAVING CONTINUITY IN ALTITUDE, and of course nobody has more continuity than athletes LIVING in altitude. For them, WE HAVE TO SPEAK ABOUT ADAPTATION, not about REACTION, and this is something the researchers NEVER went to study, preferring to see the variations that altitude can provoke in sea-level athletes, staying altitude for some period only.

In this case, everybody look at the increased level of Hb and Hct, giving merit to these parameters for some improvement in their performances.

But in the case of athletes ALWAYS in altitude, the level of Hb and Hct are not very high, and this shows that the connection among these values and the performance is not so direct as many physiologists think.

As coach, I prepare athletes for winning competitions and for improving their PB, not for having the higher Hct, and, when they improve their shape, their Hct is not higher than before.

For example, Arne Gabius, himself doctor and very expert athlete (and NOT African), showed me his data from ADAMS, belonging to 5 years of official OOC and in competition tests, and his level of Hct didn't have any fluctuation (from 41.5 to 42.7), when he was in top shape or in the worst shape of his life. THIS MEANS THERE IS NO DIRECT RELATION BETWEEN HCT AND PERFORMANCE.

The "responders" to altitude can increase their TOTAL BLOOD VOLUME till 25%, with 1 and half liter of blood more in their body, but this increase is in the quantity of PLASMA, and it means their blood has LESS VISCOSITY than normal blood of athletes "Not responders". For that reason, these athletes have a superior velocity in the blood circulation, and can run every distance at higher level of Heart Rate, because the peripheral resistances are reduced.

There are a lot of factors we have to consider, but for the most part of people some research about EPO, with subjects totally different from the top athletes, and in very little number, MUST show what happens with top runners only.

I never become tired to repeat (in spite of what my friend Mind weak can think) that, TILL WHEN SCIENTISTS DON'T START TO STUDY AND UNDERSTAND THE EFFECTS OF TRAINING, NEVER CAN KNOW AND UNDERSTAND THE EFFECTS OF BLOOD DOPING.

The fact somebody can take EPO and can run fast doesn't mean anything, because there is not the proof they could not run also faster if clean. At the same time, when I say that the top athletes I coached for long time were able running fast Clean (I'm sure of this), and I don't believe they could improve with doping, there is no proof about my assertion.

The FACT is that I know it's possible running at the top without any external aid, so the best don't need any doping for optimizing their talent. And personally I think that athletes taking doping ARE NOT ABLE TO OPTIMIZE THEIR TALENT, because not strong enough under the mental point of view, or trying shortcuts that can't bring them to their maximal potential level.

casual obsever wrote:

And of course my post, proving the inconsistent moderation here, got deleted as well. That then again proves the inconsistent moderation here. Tee hee.

Keep deleting, mods!

I know...what hell is up with that? I got some posts deleted myself. I'll say it again; the mods should explain why a certain posts are deleted. I don't know what's so hard about that. I used no profanity, nor personal attacks, nor inappropriate subject matter - just simply gave an opinion on a posting style of a regular poster. It's ironic that a thread was started on the Las Vegas shooting that was hijacked by an angry poster who for days did nothing but insult, antagonize, threaten & use profanity against other posters. This went on days!...dozens of posts! No deletions, no warnings, nothing!...business as usual so it seems!

Que Sera Sera......

calculo wrote:

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:Times faster than 3:28 are ridiculously fast

no

What??? Is this a joke???