and not only that, he had to lick road clean wit tongue!
and not only that, he had to lick road clean wit tongue!
Ghsot why do you always say this guy or that guy could run a certain time for 10k, barely any of the races in those days were 10k they were always 6 miles, which is why you probably look at their times with rose tinted specs.
No, because the conversion is roughly plus one minute and small change for the conversion from 6 miles to 10km.
Readers of today are more familiar with 10km times.
Ghost in Korea
Let me guess 23:30 for 5 miles and 15:24 for 5,000m on the track?!
Hercules Wimbledon AC
All-time list
1500m
Dave Clarke 3:39.27. 26/06/1982 Oslo Games, Norway
Mike Beevor 3:43.6. 1969
Justin Fairbrother 3:45.58. 1991 Loughborough
Simon Rayner 3:46.67. 02/06/1990 UK Champs, Cardiff
Arthur Reilly 3:47.19. 1991 Loughborough
Pete Clarke 3:47.89. 1985
Eric Caiger 3:48.1. 15/07/1960 AAA Champs. White City
Mike Varah 3:49.1. 1968
Pete Stenning 3:50.12. 27/06/1987 SCAAA, Crystal Pal.
Frank Briscoe 3:50.5. 30/06/1973 British League. Kingston
Simon Wilson 3.50.9 30/06/1993 Surrey rep.Meeting. Aldershot
John Sullivan 3.51.2 1970
Bob Holt 3.51.5 1969
Tim Beagent 3.51.7 1972
Barry Slocombe 3.51.9 1969
Dave Holt 3.52.5 18/09/1971 British League Qual. Crystal Pal.
Steve Newton 3.53.5 1975
Kevin Jennings 3.54.4 1991 SCAAA. Crystal Palace
Adrian Trowell 3.55.0 1975
John Warren 3.55.5 25/05/1987 Open. Basildon
3000m
Dave Clarke 7:54.13. 18/08/1984 SCAAA, Crystal Pal.
Bob Holt 7:59.0. 1969 London Fire Brigade
Frank Briscoe 7:59.4. 1974
Mike Beevor 7:59.6. 1973
Simon Rayner 8:03.26. 02/05/1990 Southern Counties , C Palace
Dave Holt 8:04.4. 1969
Pete Clarke 8:07.47. 30/04/1986 Southern Counties , C Palace
Terry Beagent 8:10.2. 1972
Fred Bell 8:12.6. 1977
Mike Fuller 8:13.0. 1972
Justin Fairbrother 8.13.19 27/08/1990 Reebok Challenge. Bromley
Arthur Reilly 8.15.40 02/05/1990 SCAAA. Crystal Palace
John Halliday 8.16.6 1968
Adrian Marriott 8.16.62 24/06/1998 BMC. Swindon
Peter Stenning 8.18.2 02/09/1987 Open. West London
Steve Badgery 8.18.8 1971
Simon Wilson 8.20.3 ??/07/1990 Open. Watford
Kevin Jennings 8.25.4 1991 Open. Copthall
Steve Newton 8.27.2 1978
Mike Treadwell 8.27.4 22/08/2001 Rosenheim. Tooting
5000m
Dave Clarke 13:22.54. 28/06/1983 Bislett Games, Norway
Frank Briscoe 13:48.2. 1974
Bob Holt 13:48.6. 1973 SCAAA Champs
Dave Holt 13:50.0. 1972
Mike Beevor 13:57.2. 1970
Simon Rayner 14:07.42. 06/06/1992 UK Champs, Sheffield
Adrian Marriott 14:14.5. 05/08/1998 BMC Meeting, Watford
Ernie Earl 14:15.0. 22/05/1961 Inter Counties, White City
Mike Fuller 14:16.2. 1968
Pete Clarke 14:17.7. 31/08/1986 Surrey Team, Bournemouth
Steve Badgery 14.23.4 1973 British League. Nottingham
Dave Cowen 14.24.2 25/06/1994 SCAA. Crystal Palace
Andy Thomas 14.24.4 25/07/1987 British League. Tooting
Jerome Brooks 14.30.48 01/05/1999 B.Universities. Bedford
Josh Funder 14.32.?? ??/5/1997 British Universities
Bas Collins 14.33.6 1969
K Wallis 14.34.4 1971
Fred Bell 14.35.0 1977
Mark Slowikowski 14.35.57 1985
Arthur Reilly 14.43.2 25/07/1987 British League. Tooting
10,000m
Dave Clarke 27:55.7. 25/05/1982 Florence, Italy
Bob Holt 28:39.8. 20/09/1972 Crystal Palace
Frank Briscoe 28:41.2. 17/04/1974 Crystal Palace
Dave Holt 28:41.82. 15/07/1972 Crystal Palace
Mike Beevor 29:17.4. 1970
Mike Fuller 29:22.8. 1974
Simon Rayner 29:37.7. 29/04/1992 Southern Champs, C Palace
Adrian Marriott 30:19.16. 04/07/1998 Bedford
Ferdie Gilson 30:29.0. 1970
Steve Badgery 30:29.0. 1973
Bas Collins 30.46.0 1968
L Duke 30.48.0 1970
John Halliday 30.53.4 1968
Mike Fuller 31.00.6 1976
Barry Attwell 31.01.7 26/04/1987
Paul Davies 31.16.0 1984
Adrian Trowell 31.28.7 1980
Jerry Weightman 31.48.2 03/05/1992 Surrey Champs. Kingston
Steve Webb 32.01.7 06/06/1905
Maurice Sharp 32.06.8 1975
hmmmmmmmm wrote:
Let me guess 23:30 for 5 miles and 15:24 for 5,000m on the
track?!
I remember Barratt well.
He was one of those runners who’s runs on road were far better than his track times would suggest.
Especially in road relays where he had the ability to run the whole distance virtually all out and held quite a few local clubs road relay course records - despite the fact that many ‘internationals’ who had far faster track times had also run the same course.
John Roberts
Club: South London Harriers
Best running years: 1970's
Occupation: Accountant in the city of London
Fulltime worker
Residence: Wimbledon,SW19
Best running surface: Cross country (English International)
Height and weight: approx. 6 feet tall, 9.5 stones (130lbs) - one of the thinnest elites in Britain, but very finely defined muscles. Similar build and appearance to Gebremariam of Ethiopia.
Track times: 5000 - 14:17, 10.000 - 29:30,
road: 5 miles - 23:30, 10 miles: 49:00
John was not naturally 'fast' but he was one of the best cross country runners the South of England ever produced. Those stick thin legs of his with the varicose veins saw him at the front of cross country races in England for over a 10 year career period. The muddier and more difficult the course, the better. The man was an 'animal' on hilly, muddy courses. He was feared and respected throughout the South of England, and his reputation travelled as far as the North West, where people like Mike Freary (Bolton) were aware of him.
Roberts could beat people like Bob Holt over muddy courses, and others who were a minute faster than him on the track. He even beat Bernie Ford on a couple of occasions.
Training mileage: John produced superb results on an average of just 50-60 miles a week, and often during the summer months he would go down to about 35-40 miles a week. No twice a day training for John, just a solid run, and mostly from Lauriston with people like Bob Holt, Steve Badgery (2:15/marathon), Mike Fuller, Rob Richardson (Blackheath) and others. If he felt good, John would surge in a run, but the basic structure was steady running, with weekly races, and a Sunday run of 10-15 miles.
John started running late, after being 'discovered' in the army, where he was a lightweight boxing champion (despite his height).
This boxing background probably explained why John had a rather aggressive style in racing, and sometimes in his way of talking. He did not suffer fools gladly.
A phenomenal intelligence quotient, with an IQ reported to be at the 160 level. He was a British crosswords champion, and could have been invited onto many British media shows.
Extraordinary longevity as a Surrey athlete, running well into his late 30's. I was priviledged to see him run 14:18 for 5000 at the Crystal Palace when he was 39 years old!
John often did half the training (40 miles a week) of his rivals, but his aggressiveness and pain tolerance were on a par with the best in the world.
His dark, moorish looks, gave him the nickname 'The Moroccan' in some circles, and, indeed, his close friend and mentor, Arthur Whitehead, enjoyed having John over for tea and crumpets on Sundays at Lauriston Cottage. Those were in the days when John was still a bachelor.
He married late in life at around the age of 40, and then, as we were all hoping for great things from John as a vet, his running suddenly took a downturn. Was it from lack of motivation, or other factors, we shall never know.
However, when John resigned from South London Harriers to join Hercules Wimbledon, Surrey and London athletics world was in shock. John's name had been inextricably linked to South London Harriers for the better part of 15-20 years duration. It would be like Wayne Rooney defecting to Manchester City!
John used to go on holiday to places like Mallorca every year during his bachelor years, and come back as brown or browner than the average Moroccan casbah guy. He had a natural propensity to tan. It gave him a rather intimidating appearance on the start line.
At age 60 plus, John is still very slim and fit, although he races very rarely now.
He was, and shall remain, one of the all time greats on the cross country circuit in Southern England. He represented Surrey so many times in the Inter Counties cross country, that some experts lost track.
In 1978, when I won the South London Harriers 5 mile Gibb Cup championship race (25:50), John Roberts was in the race, and when I passed him, it was shortly after that he dropped out!
It was a surreal experience for someone of my standard to finish in front of John, even though he was at the tail end of his career.
Ghost in Korea
Interested youngster
Here's an article on Arthur Whitehead, the man behind Lauriston, that may give you the flavour of those former years.
getting back to this years race, it appears that a number of the main contenders at Watford will be tuning up for the 10k champs at Manchester this weekend- hopefully it will give us some sort of indication of what kind of times to expect from the Brits at Watford. I think unless people are running 13:50 for 5k you probably won't see any sub 29:00 10k's at Watford, although I expect a few to run around 13:50 this weekend (weather permitting)
is the 10k champs an open race this year or will it be British runners only? Read somewhere that the AAA's won't be open to foriegn athletes this year, wasn't sure if that included Watford
Most seem to keep their training close to their chest but it would be interesting to see what the top British runners of TODAY are doing in their weekly training. Any takers?
Thanks, that's a v interesting piece.
In the context that the running world has changed immensely, I'd be interested in people chucking in thier ideas as to
- is it still feasible to set up soemthing like a Lauriston set up in 2007:
- if so, what would be the things/people/places that would need to be in place to attract distance runners to travel to develop and use such a 'centre'. In London there is already the unique set up round SMC/Twickenham and I don't see that this can be realistically duplicated elsewhere in the UK albeit other areas can look to adapt thiings for what makes sense where you don't have a bunch of world class/ full time runners all clustered in one small suburb.
There's at least 1 employee of the new England Athletics who is keen on this sort of idea and reads this messageboard so any sensible ideas welcome.
Hey Ghost! What did he eat for breakfast and what time did he go to the loo?
"John [Roberts] often did half the training (40 miles a week) of his rivals, but his aggressiveness and pain tolerance were on a par with the best in the world."
This implies that most people did 80mpw, and not about 40 as ghost's posts might lead one to believe! 80mpw is not particularly high for a 5/10k runner, but all too often 100+mpw seems to lead to injury or burnout, so 80 with more quality may be a better option - apparently this is what they did back then, and ghost's examples are the exception.
Now let's get back to the AAA 10000m
Birmingham uni has a decent base of non university and uni runners all training from there.
do any of the top British runners regularly run 120+ miles a week in training? What is the norm these days?
davidch wrote:
Thanks, that's a v interesting piece.
In the context that the running world has changed immensely, I'd be interested in people chucking in thier ideas as to
- is it still feasible to set up soemthing like a Lauriston set up in 2007:
- if so, what would be the things/people/places that would need to be in place to attract distance runners to travel to develop and use such a 'centre'. In London there is already the unique set up round SMC/Twickenham and I don't see that this can be realistically duplicated elsewhere in the UK albeit other areas can look to adapt thiings for what makes sense where you don't have a bunch of world class/ full time runners all clustered in one small suburb.
There's at least 1 employee of the new England Athletics who is keen on this sort of idea and reads this messageboard so any sensible ideas welcome.
seriously, if I won the Lottery I would set up something like this. I've thought about it often.
That probably doesn't help much, but hey!
Mike Barratt
Club: Ealing and Southall
Best years: 60's and 70's
Work: white collar, full time
Best times: 3 mile track - 13:39
10.000 track - 29:20
British International in the 10.000 with Don Taylor. Representative match.
Cross country: Over 20 appearances for Middlesex in the InterCounties
Training: Throughout most of his career, Mike ran once a day, and usually between 4-6 miles, progressive runs, starting off steady, but quickly getting faster and faster. For most of his career, Mike averaged 35-40 miles a week, once a day training. Many of the training runs were 'eyeballs out' and only the best and most determined runners could hang on to Mike when he trained. His determination and pace were known throughout Surrey and the London area. If athletes wanted to test their resistance with a progressive tempo run, then Mike Barratt was the man to follow during his lunchtime runs at Lauriston for a span of time of about 10 years non stop.
This type of consistency and the fact that the terrain around Lauriston is all trails and grass meant that Mike was able to remain uninjured for most of his career, despite the intense nature of his 'eyeballs out' training system. The second point was that the relatively low mileage prolonged his shelf life as a runner, because there is now way that a guy doing 100 miles a week would have been able to maintain the intensity that Mike put out during his 20 years as a top harrier in the South East of England.
On a typical 5 mile run from Lauriston in the 70's at lunchtime (the only time he trained) Mike would set off with a few brave souls (David Williams, Richard Samuel, Dave Clarke, Colin Pearson, and yours truly)....and within about 5 mins would be operating at a shade over 6 minute miling pace. As the run approached Lauriston in the last mile or so, the pace would 'hot up' with Mike usually at the front, arms moving in that dynamic action he possessed. The pace at the end of the runs would often be in the 5:20 per mile speed range or faster.
Mike was a fierce competitor and would surpass himself in road relays when competing for his club. He would run himself into the ground in those races, and I am convinced that he produced that kind of form on the track, he would have been sub. '14' for 5000, and sub. '29' for 10.000.
Mike had a son - Peter Barratt, who became a very good runner in his own right, running around 8:40 for the 3000 steeple, but, sadly, Peter would not continue running to fulfil his potential.
Mike still attends Lauriston three times a week, but after several heart operations, is content to just jog now. No more the fierce pace of his highlight years. He is also very busy as Manager of Eealing and Southall Athletics club.
Ghost in Korea
In response to people wondering what kind of training people are doing...
I'm not in this kind of shape at the moment but when running 14.10/29.40 in the last couple of years I have found that coming from endurance background always produced better results for me. I have found that even with just one track session and one grass/fartlek session per week (track would usually be long reps, 1000's, 1200's, miles, 2k' and some differentials) I could run 3.51 for 1500, 14.10 5k which is good running for me as I'm not particularly quick, and found that doing more track/speed work actually produced poorer results.
I'm not professing to be any great runner but I have progressed from being pretty mediocre (around 32 for 10k at age 21) to running at a decent level over 10 years, mainly becasue of year on year gradual improvement, I think I have run a pb at either 5k/10k or half marathon every year since 98.
IN the winter a week would be something like this (I've recently started working freelance so the schedule is different but when I worked full time it was something like this).
________________________________________________________________________
Monday am. 5 miles easy parkland
pm. 10 miles run home from work steady
Tuesday am. 10 miles run to work easy
pm. track/road session (ie. 5 x 1mile/4 x 2k (10k race pace) (10 miles)
Wednesday am. 10 miles run to work easy
pm. 10 miles run home from work easy
Thursday am. 10 miles steady run tow ork
pm. 5 miles lunchtime easy
Friday am. 5 miles easy run at lunchtime
Saturday am. Grass/Road session, progression run, 1km loop increase pace after each 1km by 10 seconds, start at 4m/km down to 2.50
pm. 5 miles jog park
Sunday am. 16-18 miles steady.
TOTAL 105-110 miles
_______________________________________________________________
Summer
Monday am. 5 miles eays park
pm. 10 miles steady run home from work
Tuesday am. 5 miles easy park
pm. track eg. 6 x 1200 differntials 68/64/68 300 jog or straight through 8 x 1000 2.50 200 jog or similar.
Wednesday am. 10 miles easy run to work
pm. 10 miles easy run home from work
Thursday am. 10 miles easy run to work.
pm. 5 miles easy inc. 20 x 100 strides with jog back.
Friday am. 5 miles easy
Saturday am. grass session 12 x 2 mins 1 min rec. continuous running or 6 x 6x200 turnarounds, 200 jog between each set.
pm. 5 miles easy
Sunday am. 15 miles
TOTAL
approx 95 miles
Thanks some runner I found that very useful. Good to see people still banging it in and getting good results.
Don't do as much mileage as the first guy because I burn out but a hard winter week would be something like this:
M - 45x2 (13)
T - 45+track/road/hills (say 800/1000 reps off 1min rec, mile repeats on the road or some combo of 40-2min hills with jog down recs) (14ish)
W - 45-60 easy (8-9)
T - 45+60ish harder tempo (17)
F - 45x2 (13)
Sa - XC/road reps + 30 easy (15)
Su - Sunday run - at least 90mins, prefereably 2hours or more. (13-20)
Overall summer structure is not significantly different but more important to keep some sembalnce of freshness in the legs for track races (you can blag your way through and XC on tired legs but not on the track) so the non-session running tends to be a bit easier paced and the sessions change according to the distance being trained for. Sunday run usually a max of 90mins from about May onwards but v important to keep doing it all through the year.
So everall mileage would be up somewhere in thr 85-100 range depending on the week (time of year, races etc.) Can't manage more than 2 or 3 hard weeks on the bounce without a shorter week (60-70) which usually try to correlate with a race. Overall philosophy is of consistency in training (ie avoid injury if poss) but also the runner should do as much mileage as the body can cope with. Also try to race fairly frequently but believe that all races should be worthwhile objectives and therefore try to be reasonably fresh for them. After all, the idea of training is to race well so may as well focus on getting the body right for race day!
ps. Although I find some of what Ghost has to say constructive I think it can have a detremental affect on young aspiring runners reading this board, in ten years of running at a reasonable level I haven't come across anyone who could do the kind of training he suggests with those kind of returns. Nor have I ever read an article in any running/athletics publication of an elite or sub elite running so little.
Unless you are in the top 1% in terms of ability then unfortunately I think you have to train pretty bloody hard, depressing but true! Yes be sensible with rest and integrating easy weeks, but I don't think we are going to see a huge turnaround in GB distance fortunes if everyone switches to 5 mile runs.