Frank Meza 2:53:10 at LA Marathon (70 years old) unofficial time (just finished)

Looks like we need to look into this Gene Dykes next.

Not Verdad wrote:

triathleteguru wrote:

you get all your improvement and highest scores when you start running, or are young. Fran's trajectory is completely fantastical!

Frank's trajectory is BS, but you missed a point here.

Lifestyle changes can also account for skewed improvement timelines.

For example, I didn't start running until 27, but all my PRs were set between 42-46 because I was able to put in the work during those 5 years. Went from ~2:55-3:00 in the marathon to 2:35-2:41 range when I was able log the miles.

It's quite possible that while Frank may have been running his whole life, he might not have done any 5x18 workouts until he read about them here in 2015.

Super workouts like 5x18 can lead to rapid improvement in the thon at any age.

This guy race another other distance or just marathons?

Not Verdad wrote:

Frank's trajectory is BS, but you missed a point here.

Lifestyle changes can also account for skewed improvement timelines.

For example, I didn't start running until 27, but all my PRs were set between 42-46 because I was able to put in the work during those 5 years. Went from ~2:55-3:00 in the marathon to 2:35-2:41 range when I was able log the miles.

I hear that - if you took my age graded scores from my early 30s and compared them to my age graded times to my 40s, you would see huge jumps too. But you fall into both the "came to the sport late" and "clearly undertrained" categories (I fell into the latter category in my 30s). There will be exceptions for guys like you. Those exceptions rarely apply to lifelong runners, and I would be surprised to see anyone go from middle-of-the-packer-at-best to age group world record holder.

How does AG scoring work? I thought Age-Graded Scoring worked by looking at the best performances of athletes at the same age, over the same distance, over the last 5 years (or some other time-frame). So in this case, over the last 5 years best performances by a male aged 70 in the marathon.

Since his "performance" yielded a time *better than* any other 70M, shouldn't it be 100% and not 95%? (or 101%, or whatever)

Smoove wrote:

No maybe about it, there are definitely legit times missing. Maybe you had to submit your age graded performance for consideration and he simply didn't. I am not sure about that, but I know that they included some Chicago Marathon times from 2018, but not all of them. You can do the math for the top 5 male masters athletes from that race and see for yourself (or you could take my work for it).

I think that he's definitely a cheat, and that USATF is hip to his game. All I am saying is that this list is not really any evidence of that.

noted. point taken. I'm just saying that even IF the list is incomplete (and I take your word for it that it is), it indicates something IMO. You can disagree and attest that it's sloppy record keeping or maybe it's something else which indicates knowledge of his transgressions. Maybe someone should ask USATF? (Maybe I will or not?) Again, not an under the radar time at an under the radar race run by an under the radar racer. Or as you say, ONE has to submit their own result which he would never do for obvious reasons. Nevertheless, it's all noise since he's a cheater IMO and not proven by this list--proven by all of the Marathon Investigation reports, postings herein and an extraordinary amount of circumstantial evidence --but it's part of the narrative that you or I cant answer definitively only the USATF (and Meza) can answer.

I think it’s the same, too. Talking about Meza cheating & Dave Proctor. We don’t even have an affidavit from Proctor himself yet, and we’ve waited a year for any notes, records, that have to be filled out for a Guinness record attempt.

If you figure it out let me know (I have a vested interest).

It also seems to show that he started small and worked his way up to work on his technique (starting last, hiding his bib, hitting timing mats, etc.)

Santa Clarita has about 200 finishers. San Francisco has about 5000. Surf City has about 1200. Long Beach has 1600. CIM close to 8000, and then finally LAM at 20000.

I agree with Kung Pow Chicken (And also agree that it is delicious!). Derek might confirm, but it seems that RDs are more likely to DQ participants due to anomalous chip data compared with video or photo evidence (Unless there is proof of the individual jumping on a bike or in a car).

A cost effective method to prevent some cheating is to not publicize the location of timing mats prior to events. For similar courses run annually, changing mat locations yearly should occur. In cases where RDs prefer mats at milestone distances (5k, 10k, Half Marathon, etc.), the addition of 2 or 3 random timing mats across the marathon distance placed on race day would be recommended.

A missed random mat can be contributed to a technical glitch, in which case the onus should be placed on the participant to produce GPS evidence, preferably with cadence. 2020 LAM entry is $175. Adding on shoes ($50-$250) and clothing ($25-$100), the cost of a new Garmin Forerunner 25 ($86) should not be prohibitive in the emergency case where you must prove your results.

Unpublished and random mats do not prevent all cheating, but would help limit the type FM is alleged to have done. RDs would simply DQ participants who miss mats placed in unpublished locations, likely via automated means. It would be nice to have a ruling body that would hold all marathons accountable to such rules, so LAM doesn't act by different criteria for DQ than CIM.

Us runners know the pain, joy, and time it takes to train for and run a marathon. Emotions play a big role in this thread. Some people really care about the integrity of the race while others simply focus on the joy of running the race and not focussing on others, even in their age group (I envy those people in this case!).

Photo and video evidence convinced me that FM cheated and I'm looking forward to a major press outlet, like the L.A. Times, to give the issue professional coverage. I also (barely!) understand the current stance of the LAM not offering a DQ to FM as all mats were crossed with reasonable times. At this point, I want the issue to be public. It's a juicy enough story with sufficient evidence to go national and potentially force LAM to change their stance, offering a DQ.

A small sample size AG like 70+ is a lot different than something like 40-44 AG when you're talking "world records."

The list is definitely incomplete. I know for a fact. : )

Progression of Cheating wrote:

It also seems to show that he started small and worked his way up to work on his technique (starting last, hiding his bib, hitting timing mats, etc.)

Santa Clarita has about 200 finishers. San Francisco has about 5000. Surf City has about 1200. Long Beach has 1600. CIM close to 8000, and then finally LAM at 20000.

Mesa-PHX is pretty small, about 2200. Maybe a trial run for LAM?

Doubler posted an article on PHX a while back, saying that he was forwarding the information to the race director there.

The answer is probably buried pages back, but is there any update on the Mesa-PHX race directors decision on FM's result?

Callaspadeaspade wrote:

Frank has a ton of peculiarities in almost every race examined.

Forget the "almost" it's "every race examined".

LOL

"csulblatinocenter

Dr. Frank Meza of Kaiser holds world record for marathon for his age group and dedicates his amazing energy to eliminate health disparities #lhec2015 #latino #health"

https://www.instagram.com/p/1lT1I8TIRB/

I guess some people fail to submit.

"As part of USATF's ongoing efforts to provide recognition to athletes and to promote the sport, USATF encourages all events to submit their results. This also fulfills the requirement that sanctioned events submit results to USATF. ...

In addition, these performances will be eligible for world rankings, national age group rankings, records and annual awards presented by USATF and various media outlets. Regardless of the size of your event, your results are important to us and we encourage you to submit them."

More bullshit. wrote:

LOL

"csulblatinocenter

Dr. Frank Meza of Kaiser holds world record for marathon for his age group and dedicates his amazing energy to eliminate health disparities #lhec2015 #latino #health"

So did he hold the world record on "April 18, 2015" or was that Frank telling more porkies?

He had already done LAM three times before Phoenix. I was going to say "he had already run LAM three times," but that isn't an accurate statement. Phoenix would be a course cutting cakewalk compared to LAM. Half as many chip mats, and much easier to navigate by car. I would imagine Phoenix would have been like an easy effort after getting away with it at LAM.

Sadly, it seems it all went horribly wrong:

IN SEARCH OF AZTLÁN

Dr. Frank Meza

August 25, 2000

Q: Going back to the running. Could you explain further how you see running as a sacred act?

A: The first hook that we have with our kids and the people I coach--I coach about 70 boys right now--we, basically, hook [them] on the competition. Remember that they're victims of the whole process that winning is the most important thing. And they like to win. They've been taught. They watch sports on T.V. So we run in competitions, and they learn to run to win. But slowly we start evolving [towards] the real value of it, [which] is just the ability to be able to run, and to enjoy the actual running. Not how fast you did it, not if you beat somebody, but just that you did it, the sheer joy of it. And the way it's incorporated is, every once in a while, maybe once or twice a week, these runs are created that are called "fun trail runs." What they are is, basically, running for the sheer pleasure of running. It seems to us much easier to do it when we are on dirt.

Running is more than just beating somebody else, or covering the distance in a certain amount of time. There's actually a pleasure in doing that. But it's more of a self-fulfilling pleasure, not [because] you beat somebody.

In the general running circles they talk about "runner's high." There is this euphoria that takes place. A lot of us think it’s close to meditation and it’s close to prayer. It doesn’t happen every day. We’re almost addicted to running because we're trying to get to that state. Sometimes we get there, sometimes we don't. I’ve been running on a daily basis since I was 16 and I'm 52 now. And I would say that once or twice a week I can do that. It’s a gift we want to give all the children that we coach. It occurs easier, we think, when you're close to Mother Nature, when you're on the trail, uneven surfaces, near trees. It seems to be easier to get to this meditation state. We don't know what it is. We just know that when you get there, it's something that you would like to get back. Once you’re kind of hooked, you’re hooked.

Q: Quite apart from your medical work, you created the Aztlán Field and Track Club. What is the purpose of that club?

A: Aztlán Track Club is an important component of the philosophy for health. In 1974, some very elite athletes in our communities started to feel that it was important that people recognize that we had more purpose other than just "our" sports. And so, in order to de-emphasize one of the sports that had been attributed to our community, boxing, there were a lot of kids that were really fine runners. And we felt that it was more of a positive role model in sport to focus on track and field, long distance running, which we had excelled for forever. And which is actually part of our Native American tradition. Many of our native peoples had a philosophy that incorporated running as part of life. And we’re talking about North America, with some of the Hopi and the Navajo, all the way to the Rarámuris of a Meso-America. But most Native Americans ran as part of their life. It was part of the spirit.

Running means movement. There is no life without movement. And we feel that in today’s society, having cars, having remote T.V.s are actually a buy-in into a very unhealthy lifestyle. And that running kind of reminds us that the reason that we’re here is for mind and body. And that you can’t have a mind without a body. They’re interrelated. They cannot be separated. And so that’s why running is kind of important. It goes past being a sport. It's part of being the whole energy that native peoples believed in, and that’s why running is something we don’t just do for exercise.

Many times, we use running almost as a metaphor. Running is hard. Sometimes we don’t want to do it. But we know that if we do it, [we'll] get a reward. And sometimes it's not an immediate reward. It’s a reward that lasts. There is a euphoria when we do something that looks impossible, and we're able to do it. When we're able to endure the pain, the shortness of breath, the aching muscles, but you endure it and you make it. There is this pleasure that is [undescribable] once you’re able to conquer that. We believe that's exactly what happens when you’re trying to achieve academically or in business or in politics. The ability to do it, to not find an excuse to do it. We find no excuses for anything that we do. And running just reminds us on a daily basis [of] that struggle. We see native peoples talking about the struggle with life and death. Running reminds us of the struggle against pain, the struggle against being lazy, the struggle against succumbing to the easy path. Every day we force ourselves to go out there and run. And it reminds [us] that [we] are always filled with a challenge. Running is just a reminder.

http://insearchofaztlan.com/meza.html