Are we sure he doesn't overdo his threshold runs i.e. run them too fast ?
He's been running threshold for quite some time and has a lactate meter+gets lab tested. Like what the poster said above, I think he's just frustrated over his last result in the marathon.
If the idea is to lift fitness from the bottom up why not lots of marathon pace - half pace?
Clearly you have zero idea what is going on here. None of this is threshold pace in the way you think it means. It's a mixture of paces from 10k pace up to around 30k pace, maybe even up to marathon, depending on the length of the reps.
If you had read the thread, you would have seen covered multiple times that there is no magic formula and the creation of enough load, will equal what is happening here. But take sirpoc bike example. Between 2-3 hours a day every day for months at a very easy pace, to create the same load and same result he could in half the time with a mixture of sweetspot. You probably could achieve the same results with less intensity, but take longer doing it. But what on earth is the point? Literally the whole point of this is to maximize the most amount of load you can, for someone who has a limited amount of time, but also who can maybe give a decent amount of time for their week. It's amazing to me that still people don't understand this vital concept of this training method sirpoc has laid out.
It also seems simple, but the dedication and discipline to carry this out is way above what people make out on this thread.
I don’t follow Svullion closely, but my impression from a couple vids and podcasts in the last couple years is that Scullion is quick to jump on different trends and will definitively blame 1 aspect of training instead of looking at the whole picture.
Scullion ran a 3:09 marathon largely self coached which is hugely impressive in my opinion. The majority of the east Africans who are running faster are using PEDs. No one who knows anything about athletics believes any of these recent world records in distance running are authentic. Scullion has worked hard, but unfortunately, I suspect he is past his peak. Great athlete, unlike the many of the cheats he is competing against.
If the idea is to lift fitness from the bottom up why not lots of marathon pace - half pace?
Clearly you have zero idea what is going on here. None of this is threshold pace in the way you think it means. It's a mixture of paces from 10k pace up to around 30k pace, maybe even up to marathon, depending on the length of the reps.
If you had read the thread, you would have seen covered multiple times that there is no magic formula and the creation of enough load, will equal what is happening here. But take sirpoc bike example. Between 2-3 hours a day every day for months at a very easy pace, to create the same load and same result he could in half the time with a mixture of sweetspot. You probably could achieve the same results with less intensity, but take longer doing it. But what on earth is the point? Literally the whole point of this is to maximize the most amount of load you can, for someone who has a limited amount of time, but also who can maybe give a decent amount of time for their week. It's amazing to me that still people don't understand this vital concept of this training method sirpoc has laid out.
It also seems simple, but the dedication and discipline to carry this out is way above what people make out on this thread.
I very much agree with this.
This method involves circa 7-8 hours per week of running. This is the amount of time that most can commit without any sacrifice to the rest of their life.
I am still interested in recommendations for those willing to commit to say 10 hours per week. How would you adjust the S-T method to an additional 3 hours per week?
Clearly you have zero idea what is going on here. None of this is threshold pace in the way you think it means. It's a mixture of paces from 10k pace up to around 30k pace, maybe even up to marathon, depending on the length of the reps.
If you had read the thread, you would have seen covered multiple times that there is no magic formula and the creation of enough load, will equal what is happening here. But take sirpoc bike example. Between 2-3 hours a day every day for months at a very easy pace, to create the same load and same result he could in half the time with a mixture of sweetspot. You probably could achieve the same results with less intensity, but take longer doing it. But what on earth is the point? Literally the whole point of this is to maximize the most amount of load you can, for someone who has a limited amount of time, but also who can maybe give a decent amount of time for their week. It's amazing to me that still people don't understand this vital concept of this training method sirpoc has laid out.
It also seems simple, but the dedication and discipline to carry this out is way above what people make out on this thread.
I very much agree with this.
This method involves circa 7-8 hours per week of running. This is the amount of time that most can commit without any sacrifice to the rest of their life.
I am still interested in recommendations for those willing to commit to say 10 hours per week. How would you adjust the S-T method to an additional 3 hours per week?
I train about 9-9 1/2 hrs a week. Not exactly 10 hours, but close enough I guess. Here's what my training looks like.
M: wu+40 min total at subT+cd
T: ez in am+ez in pm
W: wu+40 min total at subT+cd
T: ez in am+ez in pm
F: wu+40 min total at subT+cd
S: LR
S: ez
It's basically the same structure just with doubles on Tuesday and thursday.
This method involves circa 7-8 hours per week of running. This is the amount of time that most can commit without any sacrifice to the rest of their life.
I am still interested in recommendations for those willing to commit to say 10 hours per week. How would you adjust the S-T method to an additional 3 hours per week?
I train about 9-9 1/2 hrs a week. Not exactly 10 hours, but close enough I guess. Here's what my training looks like.
M: wu+40 min total at subT+cd
T: ez in am+ez in pm
W: wu+40 min total at subT+cd
T: ez in am+ez in pm
F: wu+40 min total at subT+cd
S: LR
S: ez
It's basically the same structure just with doubles on Tuesday and thursday.
I don’t follow Svullion closely, but my impression from a couple vids and podcasts in the last couple years is that Scullion is quick to jump on different trends and will definitively blame 1 aspect of training instead of looking at the whole picture.
Scullion ran a 3:09 marathon largely self coached which is hugely impressive in my opinion. The majority of the east Africans who are running faster are using PEDs. No one who knows anything about athletics believes any of these recent world records in distance running are authentic. Scullion has worked hard, but unfortunately, I suspect he is past his peak. Great athlete, unlike the many of the cheats he is competing against.
Surely you mean 2:09. And indeed, it's impressive to be self-coached at that level.
But we're going off topic, he is not following the Norwegian method nor low mileage ;)
This post was edited 3 minutes after it was posted.
As it was suggested earlier in the thread, is a very good tool for that. They use slightly different names, Fitness for CTL and Load for TSS, but they're calculated the same way, ie Fitness being 42-day exponential average of Loads. There is also 7-day exp avg called Fatigue to look at what current trend is.
Intervals.icu integrates with Strava, Garmin Connect, Suunto, Wahoo and Dropbox, analyzes your rides, runs, swims and other activities and helps plan your training
Can anyone please explain me how I can calculate and track CTL ? I want to track my progression for all the upcoming summer ! Thanks !
Honestly, this will sound like I'm really trying to troll big time but I'm not. If you are asking this question, don't bother tracking CTL, because for sure you haven't read the thread. One of the things that appears clear is this isn't all as simple as it appears. It seems very easy but you really need to follow instructions clearly. I understand the paces are a lot, but there are training books as long as this is as good as any training manual. You are very close to messing up doing this method if you don't fully understand the principles. If you aren't even sure what or how to track CTL, probably don't bother. Especially as a CTL number only means something if you are very accurate in what you track.
Scullion ran a 3:09 marathon largely self coached which is hugely impressive in my opinion. The majority of the east Africans who are running faster are using PEDs. No one who knows anything about athletics believes any of these recent world records in distance running are authentic. Scullion has worked hard, but unfortunately, I suspect he is past his peak. Great athlete, unlike the many of the cheats he is competing against.
Surely you mean 2:09. And indeed, it's impressive to be self-coached at that level.
But we're going off topic, he is not following the Norwegian method nor low mileage ;)
At least he didn't mis-type it as 3:07 ;)
In all seriousness, thanks to all for this thread. It is so simple it's hard lol. I do think that most HS teams and adult runners are still learning the nuances of it. I was wrong earlier about Daniels and other systems not being as good as this one.
I can see that Daniels, Tinman CV, Pfitz, still has its place for certain runners, esp. if they are faster-twitch (in some cases). I see now that the sub-threshold is not the only path to success, but it's a newly mapped one. It sounds like this one requires a ton of base (EVEN IF it is just singles and not doubles).
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
In all seriousness, thanks to all for this thread. It is so simple it's hard lol. I do think that most HS teams and adult runners are still learning the nuances of it.
I see now that the sub-threshold is not the only path to success, but it's a newly mapped one. It sounds like this one requires a ton of base (EVEN IF it is just singles and not doubles).
The problem with threshold training for HS (and college) runners is that is a method that requires long term commitment - and in the USA, running at HS and college levels is all about your performance this season, now - not 2 years in the future.
It's long slow improvement and Americans don't do that kind thing very well.
That's why the other methods are more popular - take a kid with not much training - beat the crap out of him doing intervals for a month or two and he DOES improve for the season. But not so much down the road. I know because thats all we ever did in HS and college training. I never had a coach who said - hey let's see how much better u can be 2 years from now.
In all seriousness, thanks to all for this thread. It is so simple it's hard lol. I do think that most HS teams and adult runners are still learning the nuances of it.
I see now that the sub-threshold is not the only path to success, but it's a newly mapped one. It sounds like this one requires a ton of base (EVEN IF it is just singles and not doubles).
The problem with threshold training for HS (and college) runners is that is a method that requires long term commitment - and in the USA, running at HS and college levels is all about your performance this season, now - not 2 years in the future.
It's long slow improvement and Americans don't do that kind thing very well.
That's why the other methods are more popular - take a kid with not much training - beat the crap out of him doing intervals for a month or two and he DOES improve for the season. But not so much down the road. I know because thats all we ever did in HS and college training. I never had a coach who said - hey let's see how much better u can be 2 years from now.
So true and well put. My coaches ran the crap out of me for my entire HS/college careers. I ran pretty mediocre times while my aerobic system was clearly severely undertrained (HR sky high at "slow" paces that are otherwise easy for others, very slow lab-tested threshold paces in comparison to PRs, quick to bonk on longer quick runs). I am only now feeling stronger and faster than before using this method.
I see in my coaching of HS and nowadays D1 the very best way to go is what I read in what you say. I agree with you. This sub threshold approach takes too long time to give results.A better way to just hit the target and great results come quickly.So I advocate a middle way between too fast and too slow threshold training.
I see in my coaching of HS and nowadays D1 the very best way to go is what I read in what you say. I agree with you. This sub threshold approach takes too long time to give results.A better way to just hit the target and great results come quickly.So I advocate a middle way between too fast and too slow threshold training.
Maybe this type of training is good if you have a target race 6-9 mos. out, and a cycle of 2-3 years of big races you want to do well in. (As opposed to the 5k next month).
I see in my coaching of HS and nowadays D1 the very best way to go is what I read in what you say. I agree with you. This sub threshold approach takes too long time to give results.A better way to just hit the target and great results come quickly.So I advocate a middle way between too fast and too slow threshold training.
This ^^ was posted within minutes of another post by "COACH WIZARD 1" on a different thread. But it's all there. "very best way", bad punctuation, "too long time", etc.
Jan, how about I start spamming your facebook pages the way you spam Letsrun? Sounds fair to me.
Can anyone please explain me how I can calculate and track CTL ? I want to track my progression for all the upcoming summer ! Thanks !
I plan to leave Trainingpeaks this autumn, because it is not hard maths: 1 km running = 7 TSS (TSS ends up being CTL in the spreadsheet), 1 km = 7 TSS even applies for walking, if you run hard it is a little bit more, slow walks can be 4 but you get the idea, cycling 1 km = 2 TSS swimming = 2 TSS for 100 m, strength training not HIT or circle training but not lang pauses = 0.6 TSS a minute. So, you but the TSS in a spreadsheet, if you end up with 490 TSS for the week, it is 490/7 = 70 CTL.