Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

Both methods mentioned not the very best.

I am the moron JS,by the way .

What a couple little girls gossiping about each other. Don't do this crap on podcasts or interviews, get in the face of the other one and have at it like a f'ing man.

Of course track athletes are weak so neither will

I will see if I can locate the one I had in mind when I said that.

My major point, though, is that absolute lactate concentrations during exercise can be quite variable, in part due to varying muscle glycogen stores. In fact, this is exactly why the Dmax method of quantifying LT was developed.

The idea that there is significant benefit in frequently measuring lactate concentrations during training and adjusting the intensity accordingly is therefore quite silly.

First, the notion of the importance of "intensity control" has been way oversold. Yes, if you repeatedly blow yourself apart by going way too hard during certain workouts such that you seriously compromise others (or, as a runner, become injured), you've got a problem. Outside of that, though, the big picture is all that matters. (I guess that is the big picture: the forest of training is more important than the trees of individual workouts.)

Second, even if you mistakenly believe that you need to tightly control the intensity of training, lactate isn't a great way to do so. For example, suppose after warming up you measure your lactate concentration after your first interval, and find that it is lower than expected - should you increase the intensity, because you must have gained fitness and need to apply a greater stimulus, or should you reduce the intensity (or bag the workout altogether), because you haven't fully recovered from prior sessions, and your muscle glycogen stores are low?

Jacob I touches on this during the latest video posted on LR.

This isn't the one, but it shows the same thing, i.e., absolute lactate concentrations are more variable/less reproducible than HR.

frontiersin.org

Frontiers | Comparing the reliability of muscle oxygen saturation with common performance and physiological markers across cycling exercise intensity

IntroductionWearable near-infrared spectroscopy (NIRS) measurements of muscle oxygen saturation (SmO2) demonstrated good test–retest reliability at rest. We hypothesized SmO2 measured with the Moxy monitor at the vastus later...

Link:www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/f...

So no actual evidence then Andrew to support your wide sweeping claims. Something you always accuse others of, via many online forums over the years. At least lexel always provides evidence for his claims. Classic Coggan, trying to bamboozle people with word salad. You'll be telling us how much you've been granted in research projects next. Your unwelcome appearance here is always the same MO. Attack people, talk nonsense, vanish like you have won the internet.

BTW, anybody else LOL at this conclusion from that study?

"Muscle oxygen saturation measured by wearable NIRS was found to have similar reliability to V̇O2 and HR, and higher than [BLa] and RPE across exercise intensity, suggesting that it is appropriate for everyday use as a non-invasive method of monitoring internal load alongside other metrics."

The authors used an Artinis Portamon NIRS device. The sensor is wireless, but broadcasts to a receiver that isn't portable. Furthermore, the system costs almost $10k (I just ordered one). The only way you could use it to routinely monitor training is if you did much of your training indoors.

Now there is the MOXY, which in my own testing a decade ago provided results comparable to those reported in this study. But, that's not what they used, so their conclusion doesn't extend to it.

Apparently your reading comprehension requires some work. That study shows exactly what I said, i.e., absolute lactate concentrations are more variable/less reproducible during exercise than HR.

PS. The number is 42.

i think ‘lexel’ is a synonym for ‘word salad’

also, you have a strained understanding of the meaning of ‘evidence’

random musings do not equate to evidence

Interesting.

As a younger athlete i thought i could compensate volume with intensity. So i trained quite hard during the week, no Vo2max units, but 4-5 times a week kind of threshold reps. Always 2 rest days per week, so 5-6h training/week. I had then a VO2max of around 64-65ml/kg/min some years in a row, VO2max was not moving.

And then i decided to change something, which was plain simple. For around 4 month i did just easy training, but with about 2h per week more taining duration, so 7-8h/week. At the end of this block i had a measured VO2max of 74ml/kg/min (about 6l).

How much weight did you lose inn that time?

Lexel,

Relevant question. Id be interested to know your weight pre and post those two training interventions since that would really put this into better context.

Also, what was your maximum absolute L of Oxygen during both periods?

I was going to post my findings of this training a week ago, but I thought I might get into the middle of the science debate. I found that interesting to a point, however I got a bit lost - I doubt I am the only one.

I can't say why/how this works. I really can't. I simply decided to trust the rest of the testimonials in this magnificent thread and jump head first into the deep end with nothing more than a HR monitor , flat ground and sirpoc guide and help. I will do the obligatory shout-out to him, as he has answered every question I have thrown at him on Strava direct message, no matter how dumb it is. I am for sure that he is sometimes sitting there wishing he never got involved in this thread! I will add the help he has given me is better than any coach.

My expectations were not great, as I felt:

1. This goes against everything I was pre-conditioned to understand about running training. What does a guy someone who has only run for two years can teach me about running.

2. I was going to just do the basics. No lactate meter, no setting up my own guide based on paces and lactate curves. Just me, my Garmin, a HR strap I bought and the track/ flat ground.

3. I've seen better days. I'm in my 40s now and my last PB was 2015.

The appeal of this was also the limited time aspect. I'm sure I am like others, but simply I do not have time for doubling.

My first impressions were there is no way this can work. The sessions felt way, way too easy. Not just a bit, incredibly easy. I remember finishing the first session of 3*10 mins almost chuckling to myself. Then I saw my HR and it was actually not far off LTHR by the end. Just under. Then kind of a light bulb went off. It's meant to feel like that and actually I had a very , very good workout , but the fact I kept myself a decent amount under LTHR meant I didn't really feel beat up . Was it a full threshold workout? No. But as sirpoc says in the guide. Even if you get 90% of the benefit, can you do this three times a week? Absolutely! This is the key. It's that extra workout. I've never been able to do three quality days + a long run a week.

It was then difficult also to slow my easy pace down. That was also the key. That just means the day in between , the slower I brought that down the even easier it was to carry out the sub threshold workouts. I found the pace guides provided as well as the spreadsheet that was provided on Strava absolutely fantastic. I really didn't change much.

As others have also said, not a lot happened initially. On about week 8 I did a 5k. I was very worried. In the warmup I did 2*400m at just under race pace and i felt really, really bad. There was surely no way I could even race at the pace I had 2 months prior? What a stupid training idea!!! I have gotten worse!! I was cursing sirpoc, this thread, everything. Feeling quite annoyed on the start line. Then, something weird happened. I felt awful again in the first 1km. Like my legs didn't understand this pace. But then, it's very odd. I just kept getting faster per KM. I ended up finishing in 18:10. 23 seconds faster than 2 months before. Just 20 seconds off my PB set when I was 35.

Fast forward. Week 22. Almost two weeks ago now. I ran a HM. My PB was the aforementioned one from 2015, my last PB at any distance. I absolutely crushed it. Ran 1:19:34 to beat my PB by a huge margin and broke for my level, what I saw a mythical 80 mins mark.

Fast forward again to last weekend 10 days when I was going to post, I figured I must be in really good shape so entered a very small 5k event. Ran 17:17 to crush my 5k PB. I just can't thank this thread enough.

What does all this mean? Not a lot. I just thought I would share my thoughts and if anyone is skeptical like maybe I was, this I think really, really does work. Especially for older runners. But for everyone, it probably will provide the week by week, month by month consistency we probably mostly all lack. Do I understand the science behind it? Not sure I still fully do. Also not sure that matters.

Hopefully the thread will inspire someone else. Have a great summer season everyone!

Nice post and congrats! I love these testimonials. It would be good to hear from anyone who's done this properly and not seen gains as well.

Couple of questions if you don't mind. Roughly what mileage/hours are you doing? How did you work out your LTHR? And did you do any supplementary work or was it exclusively easy/sub-T/long?

Friel LTHR field test. Did the best of three over two weeks in-between starting this system versus a light couple of weeks break with how I was training before. Which was E, E, Vo2/5k pace, E, straight tempo, easy and long with HM and M pace work rgeown in. I always needed a day or two off every 2nd or 3rd week training like this.

Sirpoc method, exactly as laid out. E, ST, E, ST, E, ST, Long Easy. Long easy was just as laid out here, same sort of pace as the other easy days. Just longer. I started with 5.5 hours a week. I gradually built up to 7. Following the guide of no more than 25% time doing the sub threshold stuff in terms of a total % of time. The spreadsheet on Strava does all this for you. Hard2find also made a spreadsheet to plan future sessions and build, I used that for the final 10 weeks. Was awesome to use to plan that final build to 7 hours a week.

I had two days off during the whole thing over 22 weeks as I was travelling those days. They are both easy days. I didn't need those days off at all. I didn't do anything extra - for real nothing - apart from copying sirpoc training from Strava or what he laid out here. No sperdwork, no 5k pace work, no hills. Nothing. I think that is probably the bit a lot of people get scared by. I know I was. Someone else said it. I felt like I was slower, but I was much, much faster in comparison to myself. Very odd sensation.

I am sure for some people this won't work. But I believe in as has been discussed it's likely to work for the vast majority of us, simple because of the undeveloped nature of our aerobic capacity. This is no miracle pill. But for me it's the best or smartest use of my time I've ever seen.

This is awesome - congrats! I’m in the same boat as you, 40s and PRs seem behind me but I’m going to give this method an honest shot. I’m in about 18’10 5k shape—what were your paces and corresponding hrs when you were in that shape if you don’t mind sharing? Workout paces and easy day paces would be great to know.

I wonder the success rate of this method for people who “gave up” doing vo2 vs. people like me who never really included vo2 for fear it might injure them. Then again, if you race enough, you probably are getting in some good vo2 work.

Thanks for your post.

My only query, if you are finishing just under your LTHR, should it feel as easy as this?

I would have expected it to be getting towards the comfortably hard, at the end of each rep.