Sub 3HR Fall Marathon Thread - The quest for less amateur glory begins?

runnerchef wrote:

haha! Gosh yesterday was a struggle to get in any mileage....up next, 4 days in Mexico...

For what it is worth, I am with you re: the recovery pace and mentally feeling like you're losing speed. I HATE seeing 8 handles on my runs but I have gotten comfortable with it as (1) I still crank it up every now and again and (2) I like seeing the build-up in mileage. Cant wait to see what you can pull off here!

Monday - 5.2 m @ 815 to work / 5.2m @ 8:15 to home

Tuesday - 3x1 mile reps (.5 mile jog) at 6:00 / 6:15 (uphill) / 5:55 - took an hour break to wake up my daughter and eat breakfast, then did a longer commute to work to wrap up 14 miles for the morning - trying to get it all in!

runnerchef - You are definitely getting it all in, and now in Mexico. You know, when I was in Europe last week, I had one (1) beer the entire trip... maybe that's my problem. :)

Easy Peasy - "Toad - Those combo MTM workouts won't tell you much about whether you are sub 3. Instead, I would focus on the T workouts. Have you been able to get your T pace to 6:20 or lower? If so, then you're in good shape for sub 3."

The answer to that question is "NO"...although it may depend on the specifics of the workout. Today I ran 12.17 miles. 2E+4*2T (w/2 min E)+2E at 6:25, 6:27, 6:30, 6:39. Not stellar. There were some small hills at the end, but nothing crazy.

I've averaged 75MPW the last 11 weeks, which is a lot for me. I'm hoping that easing up these next couple weeks will bring some glide back to my stride.

All this notwithstanding, my mind is made up. I will maintain sub-3 pace until I no longer can. :)

I’m still kicking along here, felt like I was riding the line of injuring myself for a while now, but with skipped runs here and there I’ve made it past my peak week and it’s all downhill from here.

I’ve missed a few long runs, but got in a muddy forested 32k on Sunday which took 2:45. I’ve been running 50-70k more a month this cycle so far compared to last year when I ran a 3:20, so fingers crossed.

Various aches and pains have started to disappear and my plan has me doing speed which is a nice change.

Still not sure if sub 3 is in the cards, but hoping to go out at that pace in a few weeks and see what happens.

Ran a 5x600m with 90 seconds race average less than 3:30 a km tonight, which was a confidence boost, as before this cycle I don’t think I’ve ever ran such quick intervals.

Anyways that’s enough for my word dump.

Free_the_Thigh - good to see you are still hanging in there - the 32k sounded like a beast of an effort...you've got this!

Toadlips - hah! I hear you, trust me, thats not the norm...

BTW - what are MTM and "T" workouts?

runnerchef wrote:

BTW - what are MTM and "T" workouts?

Jack Daniels has specific paces based on your recent performance in a race (VDOT). So, for a barely-sub-3 equivalent VDOT of 54, you have the following training paces:

E (Easy): 7:28-8:26

M (Marathon): 6:49

T (Threshold): 6:26

So, a 2E+6M+1T+... means to run 2 miles in the Easy pace range, 6 at Marathon Pace, 1 at Threshold pace, etc...Threshold is typically close to your Half Marathon race pace.

It's just shorthand to make it easier to understand the nature of the workout. I've always used 12-13 miles at M pace in the middle of 18 total miles as a gauge for how I might fair in a real race situation. Also, 10E+10M is a go-to that has served me well in the past.

I've always had a hard time hitting T pace in the middle of a training week, but the fade at the end of a 13 mile MTM block has me a little nervous...

Looking for advice:

16 days out from my goal marathon.

My plan (pfitz) calls for a 8-12k tuneup on Saturday, and 25k on sunday. There is a 10k near me on sunday, but not Saturday.

so should I:

1. do 25k on saturday, race sunday

2. 10k solo time trial saturday, 25k on sunday

3. easy run on saturday (15k?) and race sunday

or some other combination?

I havent had a tune up race yet this cycle, so and i feel like race after a 25k long run would be a too much volume this close to the marathon, so im leaning towards option 3.

thoughts?

Free_the_thigh wrote:

Looking for advice:

16 days out from my goal marathon.

My plan (pfitz) calls for a 8-12k tuneup on Saturday, and 25k on sunday. There is a 10k near me on sunday, but not Saturday.

so should I:

1. do 25k on saturday, race sunday

2. 10k solo time trial saturday, 25k on sunday

3. easy run on saturday (15k?) and race sunday

or some other combination?

I havent had a tune up race yet this cycle, so and i feel like race after a 25k long run would be a too much volume this close to the marathon, so im leaning towards option 3.

thoughts?

If you had enough long runs (25k+) then I would go for the fast 10k. I would personally think 15k the day before might be too much if you want to PB, (and i run around 34min for the 10k) - but also depends on how good you are at taking it easy and running slow in your jog :)

+ I agree that 25k 2 weeks out from marathon is alot for some, but it should work fine as long as you do it as LSD and don't feel destroyed during+after.

Free_the_thigh - How about this. Run 6 miles Easy on Saturday. Run your race hard on Sunday, and then run 6 Easy miles.

Good luck in your tuneup race!

free: I would run easy on Saturday, maybe 12km or so, race 10km on Sunday, and run an EASY 25km on Monday, basically treating it as a long recovery run.

As I recall, Pfitzinger has 5K pace repeats scheduled for Tuesday. An easy 25km the day before shouldn't interfere too much with that workout, but if necessary, that is the place to compromise (run a little slower, or reduce the number of reps).

My opinion: Highest priority is the 10K race, second-highest is the 25K long run. Lowest priority is the VO2max workout.

darkwave wrote:

As a single point of comparison - I ran 2:57 last December, and then ran 62:28 at Broad Street. So...to echo others, you were way past sub-3 shape at that point, and could be not quite there now and still capable of sub-3.

For sure. Thanks, and I appreciate the point of comparison.

And to Northerner on the last page, I appreciate the feedback. Some of those paces were slowed down slightly or changed to fit in with training partners or more targeted towards the goal of the half marathon I ran two weeks ago. Next Friday is a five mile cut down tempo, so we'll see how that goes as well. I know my training has lacked some of those long runs with significant portions at pace, which I agree is/was troubling. Last week with 6 at pace and the week before with the 19 miles and 13.1 being a race were a little more comforting. We'll see!!

Thanks all.

Thanks for the advice.

I’ve signed up for the 10k on Sunday and will run easy on Saturday (somewhere between 12k and 15k, see how I feel). While pr’ing in the 10k would be a great confidence boost, it’s not my main goal. That said I do feel like a PR is possible, my current PR is 39:30 and I ran 9k in the middle of an 18ker the other week at 4:05 to 4:10 pace (ie 41-42 pace) and felt strong throughout.

Doing the long run on Monday would be nice, but I don’t think I would have time to do a slow 25k after work.

Free_the_thigh wrote:

Doing the long run on Monday would be nice, but I don’t think I would have time to do a slow 25k after work.

Yeah, it occurred to me that having two hours open on a Monday may be a luxury you don't have. I'm spoiled by my work schedule - 3 pm to 2 am., so daylight hours available year-round. Kids are in school, no distractions.

I'm looking forward to seeing your 10K result. It's a good idea not to be chasing a particular time. Just run an honest race, enjoy competing against the other runners. I'm racing an HM tomorrow morning, and have no time goal. I'll run whatever "feels like" full-effort half-marathon pace, while racing anyone near me - - especially in they're over 40.

M/34

Target race: HM on 10/13 w/ goal of sub 1:30, stretch goal of 1:25. Also running a marathon on 11/10 but not really targeting a specific time. Thinking maybe 3:20

Training week of 9/22:

Sunday - 5 miles easy @ 7:35 pace. Felt horrible after 16 miles w/ 10 hard the day before.

Monday - 8 miles @ 7:28 [ace. Felt horrible again. Was worried I was overtraining after highest ever week last week. Came to conclusion I need to slow down easy days.

Tuesday - Off

Wednesday - Felt better. Track workout 4xMile w/800 fast jog recovery (8 minute pace). Split 5:51/5:42/5:30/5:35. 1.5 mile warm-up, 1 mile cool down. 8 total.

Thursday - 8 easy @ 7:56 pace

Friday - 8 easy @ 7:37 pace

Saturday - 14 miles. 12 progression with last 6 miles at HM pace or faster. Splits were 8:05/7:51/7:46/7:36/7:20/6:53/6:51/6:40/6:32/6:19/6:05/6:00. Cooled down 2 at 7:45 pace. Last mile was a guess because watch died.

Total - 51 miles.

First time post in a long time. I'm a 40 y/o amateur runner, two kids, and a full time job. I've done several sub 3:10s, with a 3:06 at Philly ~9 years ago. I recently lost 17 lbs (down to 153, 5'8") and decided it was time to see if I could run like a "gazelle" without the extra weight. I'm running CIM on 12/8/19.

I was consistently putting in 40-55 mpw up until 9/1 and then started my 100 day lead up. I run on a 9 day schedule to stay fresh and injury free. I just finished the first 27 day macro (below, in miles or meters for track) and started the second macro today. I was a little tired from the extra MP in the long run last week and won't be doing that again. I plan to finish this 2nd macro up, taper for a week, and then do a 1/2 marathon tune up at the end of October. This will leave me one more 27d macro and a 14 day taper until CIM.

I feel like I'm right on the line of a sub-3 with this training. The 1/2 will be the telltale sign. I think I could push my pace mile work a little more and get them closer to 6:25. The 8.7 continuous at 6:44 was a big confidence boost and I'm planning to do an 11 mile at 6:50 this macro.

S: 12.4: 6x1@6:35-½@6:15 W/¼ EZ

S: 6M EZ & LEG STRENGTH

M: 6.1M EZ

T: 4.6M EZ

W: 10.5M W/ 11X400@1:28 W/ 400 EZ JOG

R: 6M EZ & LEG STRENGTH

F: 4.6M EZ

S: 18.1M LONG

S: 6.1M EZ

M: OFF & UPPER STRENGTH

TOTAL: 74.4 (One extra day due to travel/schedule)

T: 13.6M W/ 7X1 @ 6:29 W/ ¼ EZ & LEG STRENGTH

W: 5.6M EZ

R: 5.7M EZ

F: 12.6M W/ 8.67 @ 6:44

S: 6M EZ & LEG STRENGTH

S: 4.6M EZ

M: 20.1M LONG

T: 4.2M EZ

W: OFF & UPPER STRENGTH

TOTAL: 74.3

R: 14M W/ 8X1 @6:28 W/ ¼ EZ & LEG STRENGTH

F: 5M EZ

S: 5.3M EZ

S: 11.4 W/ 8X800 @ 2:59 W/ 3' EZ JOG & LEG STRENGTH

M: 5M EZ

T: 5.3M EZ

W: 21M LONG W/ 4M @ 6:49

R: OFF

F: OFF & UPPER STRENGTH

TOTAL: 67

highhoppingworm - 1:30 is a soft goal for you. You've been putting in good mileage and turning out fantastic workouts. If your legs are fresh on race day, 1:25 may be conservative. You could go out at 6:30 - 6:34 pace (~1:25-1:26) and reassess at the halfway point. As others have said, you might have a 1:22-1:24 in you! It's your half marathon, though, and I think it's your first, if I recall correctly? If that's the case, I can understand why you'd want to be a little conservative, but don't be surprised if you surprise yourself!

Highhoppin - those easy runs don’t look so easy! Especially if you’re not feeling great. You may be much better served slowing down by a minute plus per mile. Let your body actually recover. If it helps, remind yourself that you don’t improve those days. You may actually get worse if you don’t allow proper recovery.

Indeed it is my first. I know 1:30 is soft at this point. I am planning going to go out at 6:40 pace and will reassess at 10k. I appreciate the support and look forward to reporting back!

I know. I know. I have to focus on slowing down. What happens is I start at 815-830 pace then get bored and start gradually speeding up without noticing. My focus for tomorrow and Monday is to really run at 815-830 pace for 8 miles each day.

2 weeks out from Chicago on 10/13. Still male, 47, and 5'8". Now 145.6 lbs -- somehow saying "no" to all but one sugar donut and two or three small cups of cider at the cider mill last weekend seems to be paying off. My wife also says I look too skinny, which is a good sign.

This week was all about the taper/recovery, with a bit of drama at the end:

Su - 9.02 Easy (7:53)

Mo - 7.54 Recovery (8:23)

Tu - 2E (8:02)+4x2Tw/2min E recovery (6:25, 6:27, 6:30, 6:39) + 1.5E (8:19) -- A bit off on the T pace. Would like to see 6:20-6:25 for a sub-3, but the mid-week Ts have never been kind to me...

We - 6.15 Recovery (8:28)

Th - 6.13 Recovery (8:26)

Fr - 4.04 Recovery (8:12)

And then....

Sa - 11.34 Was supposed to be 2E+3x2Tw/2min E+7E...I ended up with...2E (8:06)+2T (6:14)+1T (6:16)+6E (8:27)

56.36 miles Total

It pains me as I type this. No, my fingers are fine. It's actually my hamstring that's bothering me.

I took LebanonHills advice to heart this past week and really took it easy. Not only was I reducing my overall mileage to 80%, but I really ran EASY those 3 days prior to Saturday's workout.

Let me tell you, it did pay off. I was feeling strong on those first 3 T's. I averaged 6:14 for the first 2T, even over some undulating hills, and was at about 6:16 pace on that 3rd T mile when my hamstring suddenly cramped up like the Dickens. I took a few hops before realizing it was a lost cause and stopped to stretch and massage. I was going to limp the rest of the miles to get up to the goal of 15 miles, but the cramp didn't subside and I figured I'd better just head for home.

This isn't like those cramps that appear suddenly in the middle of the night and then disappear just as quickly. This one doesn't seem to want to go away. The only time I've experienced cramping of any kind was at the very end of previous marathons. In those cases, the cramps would occur for a split second whenever I'd change something about my pace (turn, go up a small incline), causing me a lot of distress, but by maintaining pace I was able to avoid a full lockup.

This cramp locked my hammie suddenly and completely, and it's hurting right now. When I got home, I drank some Gatorade, ate a banana, some popcorn, a bagel with lots of salt and butter, some cherries, salmon, a bowl of soup, and pickles. It was still there, so I used this black & decker like power tool I have that beats muscles into submission. I also foam rolled and tried some stretches. It's still there, even as I type.

Now, as I said, I've been running for 10 years, and this never happens to me...however, it did happen to me about 2 weeks ago during a slightly faster than normal easy run (around 7:25 pace). That occurred the first day I ran after flying overseas. So I had 2 hours, 30 minutes of sleep on the plane, walked around Heidelberg when we landed, drove an hour or two to the hotel (and didn't do any running). Next morning, I woke up early, ran around the park and my hamstring suddenly locked up. I didn't think too much of it because I had the whole lack of sleep, jetlag, plane dehydration thing going on. Still, my legs felt fresh that morning, like they did today, because I had not run the previous day.

The rest of the week I walked like a fool, took on a 20 mile "easy" run through the foothills of the alps, and all the while the cramp gradually lessened. I have a feeling that this is "Hamstring Cramp, Part II", and that it will go along the same path...

So....I'm more concerned about the implications of the cramping more than my current condition...namely, do I have to worry about cramping like this on marathon day?

Any suggestions appreciated.

highhoppingworm wrote:

Indeed it is my first. I know 1:30 is soft at this point. I am planning going to go out at 6:40 pace and will reassess at 10k. I appreciate the support and look forward to reporting back!

Fair enough, highhoppingworm! You need to be confident with the plan, and you can always run faster after that first 10k if you're feeling it!