Yes of course and please don’t take offense I am only trying to use this example as an opportunity for self-reflection as coaches must do all the time.
Yes of course and please don’t take offense I am only trying to use this example as an opportunity for self-reflection as coaches must do all the time.
The Stone Cutter wrote:
Actually sometimes a race is just that. A race against the competition. Completely dictated by those against whom you are competing.
Stone Cutter: I have a great deal of respect for the work that you're doing with OR, and I think that the direction you've been taking with respect to the winter racing series makes a lot of sense. And I'm also conscious of the problems involved in having too many cooks in the coaching kitchen. That being said, there are a couple of things that have come up in the recent conversation that I'd like to offer a perspective on.
The first thing is the quote from your comment above. I think I get the point that you're making. Sometimes you're racing for time, sometimes you're racing for place. Sometimes your goals are defined in terms of performance, and sometimes they're defined in terms of competition. In the context of the local racing series, the OR is primarily focused on competitive goals. That makes total sense.
But let's look at the specific way in which you expressed this point just now. The race is "completely dictated by those against whom you are competing." Again, I get the point you are trying to make. But if someone approaches a race in this way, such that the terms of the race are dictated by their competition, then it seems to me that they are ceding a key competitive advantage. To the degree that your race is driven by competitive goals, you want to be the one dictating the terms to your competitors, and not the other way around.
Similarly, I understand what you're talking about when you encourage the OR to get out of his comfort zone. But on a certain level, if you're not comfortable with the race that you're running, you're running at a disadvantage to competitors who are. So, in the longer term, I would suggest that the goal is not to run out of your comfort zone, but to expand your zone of confidence.
If I'm putting some emphasis on these points, it's not because I think that you need to have them explained to you (I suspect that you yourself understand them perfectly well). Rather, it's because it seems like one of the key things that the OR is working on is being able to perform with greater confidence in a competitive setting, controlling his own race, and to a greater degree imposing the terms of the race on his competition. He's making significant progress, but my sense is that he still has a good deal of room to grow in this regard.
With that in mind: OR, you have talked a number of times in the past about not enjoying racing, and it seems like racing can be something that provokes a good deal of anxiety for you. Again, it seems like you've been making significant progress, but even just a few comments ago you talked about being afraid of your own goals. Many people feel this way to some degree when it comes to racing, of course. I certainly have myself, I know that many of the people I've run with did, and when I was coaching I know that many of the kids I worked with did, too. That being said, the specific nature of the anxiety/fear can be different for different people. So, it's important to understand for yourself what specifically works and doesn't work for you, so that you can build an approach to racing that puts you, personally, in the best frame of mind possible. And in my experience, both as an athlete and a coach, it is very important to be honest with yourself when doing this. Don't get hung up on what you think you should be doing, or what you think you ought to be doing, try to figure out what actually works for you.
In saying this, I don't intend to question any of the work that you're doing with Stone Cutter at this point. My point is simply to suggest that over the longer term, it may be worthwhile for you to invest some thought and effort in building a personal approach to racing that works for you.
Hope this is helpful.
What a wall of text and full of utter drivel. You think you understand what SC is trying to say yet you bandy his words and misinterpret him on purpose.
OC has a confidence issue. Like many anally retentive LCRs he's afraid of failure. Finishing second when not trying to win seems winning to him. Losing the finishing kick and coming second would be a failure and therefore losing. SC is trying to get OC to drop his balls, to race for the win, to give his everything. This would give him courage to push in the future and he'd probably find that there's so much more in the tank than he has even dared to hope while pvussyfooting around. These lessons would be especially valuable to learn now, when the stakes are so low.
Read Zatopek's biography "Today we die a little" and start running for real.
And if the BloJos wouldn't be such cheapskates, we'd have edit function.
*OC=OR
A couple of thoughts. This is partially about racing tactics and it is partially about forcing OR to push the envelope some sonthat he can find his actual limits a bit better.
As to racing tactics, I would generally disagree that going out with someone else is ceding control over a race. I can see why it might be viewed that way, but it can also be viewed as "you can't run away from me and I am going to decide when the separation will occur in this race; I'm going to stay comfortable while you donhe work until I decide to exploit your stress."
In fact, as a guy who has always been a "sit and kick" guy, I'd say for someone like OR, who may not have the finishing speed of a younger guy, the "sit and surge" being suggested may be the only way to really win a race or a matchup. It is incredibly hard to run away from an athlete of similar fitness from the gun, and if you don't have raw speed, your only real hope of winning is picking a point in the race when your competitors are hurting and it is too soon for them to unleash a big kick - maybe 1000m to 1600m out - and force them to respond to a move.
too hot 3 wrote:
you also have to approach the 5K with some respect.
Exactly. Lack of respect is why so many 5k ‘thoners forget their fanny pack and as a result go home devastated.
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=496666&page=0Smoove wrote:
A couple of thoughts. This is partially about racing tactics and it is partially about forcing OR to push the envelope some sonthat he can find his actual limits a bit better.
As to racing tactics, I would generally disagree that going out with someone else is ceding control over a race. I can see why it might be viewed that way, but it can also be viewed as "you can't run away from me and I am going to decide when the separation will occur in this race; I'm going to stay comfortable while you don-he work until I decide to exploit your stress."
In fact, as a guy who has always been a "sit and kick" guy, I'd say for someone like OR, who may not have the finishing speed of a younger guy, the "sit and surge" being suggested may be the only way to really win a race or a matchup. It is incredibly hard to run away from an athlete of similar fitness from the gun, and if you don't have raw speed, your only real hope of winning is picking a point in the race when your competitors are hurting and it is too soon for them to unleash a big kick - maybe 1000m to 1600m out - and force them to respond to a move.
My concern is that someone goes out too fast and OR feels obliged to cover that move. If you’re going to chase after someone it has to be in your best interest. I agree with the sit and kick scenario assuming the pace is reasonable (see bold above)
OR - I think it’s best you and I start exchanging communication via email. I don’t want you to become distracted by the crowd. Of course, we can both continue to post here with updates and such. But you and I are working together great as a team and it’s a lot easier to keep it that way when it’s one-on-one. My email is available on the RRT thread this week.
What Stone said to do before the race:
The Stone Cutter wrote:
I would encourage you to tuck directly behind someone of equal ability and try to steal it near the end if you have it in you. If not, just do your best to hold position.
OR did that, beating a guy in the last mile he usually loses to. Success.
The Stone Cutter wrote:
It sounds like you usually end up within :10 or so of this other guy Juan and you still have some in the tank at the end.
Next race, as long as there are no illness symptoms, just go with him straight from the gun and hold on. Don’t allow any separation, just stalk him relentlessly until the finish and at some point pass him - no matter what it takes.
That’s a tactic best left for maybe a shorter race (5k) when you are feeling better. Not necessarily a criticism about today.
This run was still a big victory.
Stone encourages him that he executed well but he thinks he's capable of more next time.
After ~4 races it's safe to assume 'Juan' isn't just going to decide to drop a 4:50 from the gun. We know what Juan is. 'Go get Juan' is the direction.
You keep bringing up some mythical 15:00 guy you're afraid OR is going to try to chase and SC is telling him to hang with, and you just end up sounding like you want to hear yourself talk because it doesn't apply to the current situation.
No problem. I just sent you a message in order to confirm...
The Stone Cutter wrote:
too hot 3 wrote:
Ultimately you have to rely on your own race plan.
OR and I have a race plan, about which we are in agreement. We will stick with it.
Yes, that may be. But you cant exceed the laws of physics. If the runner goes out too fast he will unconditionally pay for it in the middle or at the end of the race.
Head coach, how much do you know of OR's running history?
Many on the thread have had the luxury of reading OR's weekly posts over the last year plus and that history helps inform his training. We know that he didn't start racing until later in life and has never felt particularly aerobically challenged in racing. That relative lack of experience means he needs to experience different racing approaches to find his true top end fitness.
Smoove wrote:
Head coach, how much do you know of OR's running history?
Many on the thread have had the luxury of reading OR's weekly posts over the last year plus and that history helps inform his training. We know that he didn't start racing until later in life and has never felt particularly aerobically challenged in racing. That relative lack of experience means he needs to experience different racing approaches to find his true top end fitness.
Why not save him the unnecessary mistakes that are quite obvious to an experienced runner or trainer?
Historian, do you know how fast Juan ran the first 400-800-mile of this last race? It’s plausible that he went out a bit too aggressively and Matt was one of the casualties.
Stone: My apologies if my comment pushed you in this direction. Definitely not my intention. Fan of you and the OR, as I hope you both know, and I think this thread has been a valuable one.
Smoove: Your point is well taken. The pursuer can definitely be the one in control (as I know very well, having had a fair amount of experience being sat on and then kicked...). The point I was trying to make - and I may not have expressed it clearly - is that beyond the issue of specific tactics, you want to run the race that you're confident in and that you choose to run, not the race that circumstances or competitors force upon you.
PVK: Thank you for reminding me of the recent Zatopek biography. As it happens, Zatopek was one of my first running heroes. I love what the biographer says in this interview about his "crazy playfulness and generosity." A courageous man, a kind man, and if he said even half the things that are attributed to him, a man who had a way with words. (And yes, I could be more concise myself.)
OR: Congratulations again on a race well run! Look forward to seeing where you go from here.
gfmah - no harm, no foul. I know where you are coming from. I appreciate your support, both in this thread and the RRTT.
Zatopek. The Triple Crown of distance running. A legend of legends.
too hot 3 wrote:
Historian, do you know how fast Juan ran the first 400-800-mile of this last race? It’s plausible that he went out a bit too aggressively and Matt was one of the casualties.
Yes.
Juan hit the first half mile at 2:53. That's 5:46 pace.
He hit one mile at 5:49.
Then 5:55, 5:43, 5:55, 5:47.
He finished in 29:17. That's 5:51 average.
outsiderunner wrote:
Zatopek. The Triple Crown of distance running. A legend of legends.
Not to sidetrack this thread, but hey, dude, you're a beast. I remember seeing you in the "tired of injuries, may just bow out" thread.
Apparently you've made a lot of progress since then, in terms of both injuries (sciatica, if my memory serves me right) and fitness. That's so encouraging for someone who has been battling chronic hip issues for three years! (my problem stems from the abductor, which is confirmed by MRI as increased signal in the gluteus medius, minimus and maximus, especially in the medius and minimus) What's your secret? How do you come back stronger than ever?
RR&T Historian wrote:
too hot 3 wrote:
Historian, do you know how fast Juan ran the first 400-800-mile of this last race? It’s plausible that he went out a bit too aggressively and Matt was one of the casualties.
Yes.
Juan hit the first half mile at 2:53. That's 5:46 pace.
He hit one mile at 5:49.
Then 5:55, 5:43, 5:55, 5:47.
He finished in 29:17. That's 5:51 average.
Wow, those splits sound awfully correct. Is that you, Juan?