Moen. 2:05. Wins Fukuoka. How??

rekrunner wrote:

MOEN is a man. Can you do a similar analysis for the top all-time marathon times for men?

SkyRunner.Shiva.11333ft.com wrote:

Top 11 all-time marathon times for women:

Yes drugs don't work on men, women run the world and men are stuffed.

COACH J.S å ä ö . wrote:

He followed my secret training, in secret!

Getting ahead of the Joneses wrote:

If a guy like Steve Jones could run 2:07 30 years ago shouldn't a guy who likely has a bit more raw talent be able to run faster?

Yeah right. I know Steve Jones. He didn't follow your moronic copy cat advice. Keep on dreaming little guy.

It was a yes/no question. Men and women are different, as are marathons and cross-country skiing. In a thread about Moen, why not look at the men's (not women's) marathon (not cross-country skiing). In the top 50 performances, I find one name in Fancy Bears leak. In the top 50 performers, I find one more name, busted for EPO.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

MOEN is a man. Can you do a similar analysis for the top all-time marathon times for men?

Yes drugs don't work on men, women run the world and men are stuffed.

rekrunner wrote:

It was a yes/no question. Men and women are different, as are marathons and cross-country skiing.

In a thread about Moen, why not look at the men's (not women's) marathon (not cross-country skiing).

In the top 50 performances, I find one name in Fancy Bears leak.

In the top 50 performers, I find one more name, busted for EPO.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

Yes drugs don't work on men, women run the world and men are stuffed.

Rekrunner, mate "not cross-country skiing???" I can't recall mentioning cross-country skiing, personally I know very little about that sport and could not actually name a single skier, but I do know that they have high vo2max recordings and their blood specs shot up coincidentally just after the arrival of epo and came down again after stringent testing came on the scene.

The testing of marathon runners is what someone once called "joke shop." Interestingly, this year was far stricter than past years. The only consistent performer this year and previous years was Kipchoge which might well strengthen his reputation.

Hi Renato, thank you for your long and detailed response, very much appreciated. And I am sorry for my late reaction, but I was traveling with very poor internet access. Just one remark:

Renato Canova wrote:

"Well, we do know that 44% - 57% of all championship athletes in 2011 are self-admitted drug cheats, so such a comparison would only be valid if half of your neighbors were terrorists."

Ken, this is a personal and not supported interpretation, because the percentage of 44% - 57% regards ALL THE EVENTS

Well yes, which is why I wrote "all championship athletes".

But do the math. The running events were 2/3 of the whole championship, so with such high numbers the runners can't be innocent, even if 3/4 of the field athletes were drug cheats.

rekrunner wrote:

Falling below suspicion indicates that hemoglobin values are not unusually high

Oh come on, we know better than this. The thresholds of suspicion are so ridiculously high, that out-of-control Russian EPO cheats remained inconspicuous ("no case to answer", hahaha). As rjm showed, your dear wife for example would have been banned long time ago, had she been a skier or cyclist.

No one knows better than you. We also know, from these very same "ridiculously high" thresholds, that athletes with suspicious blood values in race-walking and the 1500m were nearly five times more likely to win World and Olympic medals than athletes in the marathon. Although she has done them all, my wife was never competitive at the world level in running, skiing, or cycling. She does take several kinds of medication, including thyroid supplements. I missed where rjm33 showed anything about skiing or cycling being more aggressive at banning athletes with blood values easily obtained by training three weeks at high altitude.

casual obsever wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Falling below suspicion indicates that hemoglobin values are not unusually high

Oh come on, we know better than this. The thresholds of suspicion are so ridiculously high, that out-of-control Russian EPO cheats remained inconspicuous ("no case to answer", hahaha). As rjm showed, your dear wife for example would have been banned long time ago, had she been a skier or cyclist.

SkyRunner.Shiva.11333ft.com wrote:

Top 11 all-time marathon times for women:

1 2:15:25 Paula Radcliffe (multiple suspicious blood tests, 21.88% increase in Hb in 2 days in 2003, 16.2 g/dL Hb level in 2012)

2 2:17:01 Mary Keitany (on leaked Fancy Bears Atypical ABP blood test result with follow up testing list)

3 2:17:18 Paula Radcliffe (multiple suspicious blood test results)

4 2:17:42 Paula Radcliffe (multiple suspicious blood test results)

5 2:17:56 Tirunesh Dibaba (bad luck, she was at the Sabadell Spain hotel with Genzebe and Jama during EPO raid)

6 2:18:20 Liliya Shobukhova (banned for doping with EPO, adverse ABP)

7 2:18:31 Tirunesh Dibaba (bad luck she was at the EPO raid in Sabadell)

8 2:18:37 Mary Keitany (Atypical ABP blood test result on Fancy Bears leaked list)

9 2:18:47 Catherine N'dereba....set in 2001. No ABP at the time.

10 2:18:56 Paula Radcliffe (multiple suspicious blood tests)

11 2:18:57a Rita Jeptoo (banned for doping with EPO)

Wow, here's me almost a most believing the ruse that doping doesn't help with the marathon. No #9 is the least suspicious and that is only because we simply do not know. Ha.

And to think....my kitchen faucet just sits there all the time.

grumpyoldman wrote:

And to think....my kitchen faucet just sits there all the time.

Well done, sir, well done.

Renato Canova wrote:

we will publish, in few days , ALL THE OFFICIAL DATA OF BLOOD TESTS SONDRE HAD WITH WADA FOR THE BIOLOGICAL PASSPORT, NOT ONLY WITH THE OFF SCORE, BUT IN THE TOTALITY OF THE SPECIFIC TESTS.

NOT ONLY : WE GO TO PUBLISH ALSO THE TEST (obviously not from WADA) he had from 2007, when was only 16.

Hi Renato, Do you have any date for when this will be released? Cheers, DHT123

Are there still people out there that believe that this guy is clean??

You really have to be stupid or blind to think that this guy is clean.

He was never able to run under 62:19 for the half-marathon (from 2012 till 2016 his PR was always between 62:19-63:00. Then he goes some months to Kenya and he improves his PR by 2 minutes and 31 seconds (59:48)! The same thing for the marathon: he was never able to run under 2:12:54. And then, after spending some months in Kenya, he improves his PR by more than 7 minutes! (2:05:48). Even Haile Gebrselassie and Samuel Wanjiru were never able to run that marathon under 2:06:00!

If you know and understand a bit about running, you perfectly know that his progression is not normal at all.

Oh yea, if his coach really had nothing to hide, why would he spent so much time on letsrun trying to justify his progression and revealing all his training sessions??

DHT123 wrote:

Renato Canova wrote:

we will publish, in few days , ALL THE OFFICIAL DATA OF BLOOD TESTS SONDRE HAD WITH WADA FOR THE BIOLOGICAL PASSPORT, NOT ONLY WITH THE OFF SCORE, BUT IN THE TOTALITY OF THE SPECIFIC TESTS.

NOT ONLY : WE GO TO PUBLISH ALSO THE TEST (obviously not from WADA) he had from 2007, when was only 16.

Hi Renato, Do you have any date for when this will be released? Cheers, DHT123

Hi Renato,

Following up on the post from before - it's now nearly a month since you said that you would be publishing something ' in a few days'. Could you shed some light as to when you will do this? Thanks.

he has been injured a lot - had to take almost two years off.

Timothy800 wrote:

Even Haile Gebrselassie and Samuel Wanjiru were never able to run that marathon under 2:06:00!

Timothy800 wrote:

If you know and understand a bit about running, which I obviously don't (...)

He said THAT marathon = Fukuoka marathon

71st December 3, 2017 Sondre Nordstad Moen Norway 2:05:48

70th December 4, 2016 Yemane Tsegay Ethiopia 2:08:48

69th December 6, 2015 Patrick Makau Kenya 2:08:18

68th December 7, 2014 Patrick Makau Kenya 2:08:22

67th December 1, 2013 Martin Mathathi Kenya 2:07:16

66th December 2, 2012 Joseph Gitau Kenya 2:06:58

65th December 4, 2011[9] Josephat Ndambiri Kenya 2:07:36

64th December 5, 2010 Jaouad Gharib Morocco 2:08:24

63rd December 6, 2009 Tsegaye Kebede Ethiopia 2:05:18

62nd December 7, 2008 Tsegaye Kebede Ethiopia 2:06:10

61st December 2, 2007 Samuel Wanjiru Kenya 2:06:39

60th December 3, 2006 Haile Gebrselassie Ethiopia 2:06:52

deal with your brain damage wrote:

He said THAT marathon = Fukuoka marathon

71st December 3, 2017 Sondre Nordstad Moen Norway 2:05:48

70th December 4, 2016 Yemane Tsegay Ethiopia 2:08:48

69th December 6, 2015 Patrick Makau Kenya 2:08:18

68th December 7, 2014 Patrick Makau Kenya 2:08:22

67th December 1, 2013 Martin Mathathi Kenya 2:07:16

66th December 2, 2012 Joseph Gitau Kenya 2:06:58

65th December 4, 2011[9] Josephat Ndambiri Kenya 2:07:36

64th December 5, 2010 Jaouad Gharib Morocco 2:08:24

63rd December 6, 2009 Tsegaye Kebede Ethiopia 2:05:18

62nd December 7, 2008 Tsegaye Kebede Ethiopia 2:06:10

61st December 2, 2007 Samuel Wanjiru Kenya 2:06:39

60th December 3, 2006 Haile Gebrselassie Ethiopia 2:06:52

I would say Moen is in some good company here..

I'm still organizing all the material I have about Sondre.

However, I can give some anticipation detailing the 26 OOC test he had during the last years, with 3 parameters everybody can understand only : Hb, Hct and off-score.

I want to connect every test with the performances achieved in the same period, with the duration of the stay in altitude, and with the type of training. This is the reason because I need time for the final draft, since I have to do a complete analysis for making a study we have to publish in the technical magazine of IAAF (New Studies in Athletics).

These are the OOC tests, all valid for creating the Biological Passport :

18 May 2011 (Blood and Urine - Lab in Oslo) : Hb 13.2 - Hct 40.0 - OFF Score 82.9

13 Jul 2011 (Blood and Urine - Lab in Seibersdorf in Austria) : Hb 13.6 - Hct 41.6 - OFF Score 99.5

29 Nov 2011 (Blood and Urine - Lab in Oslo) : Hb 13.3 - Hct 40.6 - OFF Score 68.1

24 Jan 2012 (Blood and Urine - Lab in Oslo) : Hb 14.7 - Hct 45.2 - OFF Score 100.5

5 Jun 2012 (Blood and Urine - Lab in Oslo) : Hb 13.7 - Hct 41.2 - OFF Score 69.9

22 Nov 2012 (Blood and Urine - Lab in Oslo) : Hb 13.9 - Hct 42.6 - OFF Score 73

19 Mar 2013 (Blood and Urine - Lab in Oslo) : Hb 13.5 - Hct 39.5 - OFF Score 83.7

12 Jun 2013 (Blood and Urine - Lab in Oslo) : Hb 14.3 - Hct 42.3 - OFF Score 91.4

23 Oct 2013 (Blood and Urine - Lab in Oslo) : Hb 13.9 - Hct 41.1 - OFF Score 84.3

23 Apr 2014 (Blood and Urine - Lab in Oslo) : Hb 14.1 - Hct 42.5 - OFF Score 99

30 Jul 2014 (Blood and Urine - Lab in Oslo) : Hb 14.1 - Hct 44.2 - OFF Score 89.7

8 Sep 2014 (Blood and Urine - Lab in Oslo) : Hb 14.1 - Hct 42 - OFF Score 96.5

26 Oct 2014 (Blood only - Lab in Utah in USA) : Hb 15.1 - Hct 45.1 - OFF Score 92.2 (Altitude)

12 Jan 2015 (Blood and Urine - Lab in Oslo) : Hb 14.2 - Hct 43.2 - OFF Score 93.3

24 Mar 2015 (Blood and Urine - Lab in Oslo) : Hb 14.1 - Hct 42.1 - OFF Score 89

6 May 2015 (Blood and Urine - Lab in Oslo) : Hb 14.6 - Hct 44.7 - OFF Score 94.4

2 Dec 2015 (Blood and Urine - Lab in Oslo) : Hb 14.3 - Hct 43 - OFF Score 90.4

28 Jan 2016 (Blood and Urine - Lab in Oslo) : Hb 14.8 - Hct 45 - OFF Score 93

24 Feb 2016 (Blood and Urine - Lab in Oslo) : Hb 14 - Hct 41.9 - OFF Score 93.1

13 Apr 2016 (Blood and Urine - Lab in Oslo) : Hb 14.5 - Hct 42.8 - OFF Score 95.9

10 Jun 2016 (Blood and Urine - Lab in Oslo) : Hb 14.1 - Hct 41.8 - OFF Score 91.9

8 Aug 2016 (Blood and Urine - Lab in Oslo) : Hb 14 - Hct 41.6 - OFF Score 92.8

19 Apr 2017 (Blood and Urine - Lab in Oslo) : Hb 14.3 - Hct 43.1 - OFF Score 85.1

(10 days after Hannover Marathon in 2:10:07, NR)

8 Aug 2017 (Blood only - Lab in Dresden (GER)) : Hb 15.3 - Hct 45.5 - OFF Score 103

15 Dec 2017 (Blood and Urine - Lab in Oslo) : Hb 14.8 - Hct 45 - OFF Score 84.2

At a first analysis (of course, not complete, because still the data are not connected with the type of training and the duration of the stay in altitude), we can see how :

1. Altitude normally produce an increase of 2 points of Hct, and 1 point of Hb

2. The OFF Score are not connected with the level of Hct (for example, Sondre had 103 with 45.5 Hct, and 84.2 with 45.0, practically the same level)

In the tests Sondre had before the official start of the Biological Passport, we can find average of Hb around 13.5 (he has 11 tests between 12.9 and 14), and of Hct around 40 (11 tests between 38 and 42).

These are the first data, that clearly demonstrate Sondre is an athlete who doesn't take anything for increasing his own natural values.

However, the goal of my final analysis is to understand which kind of variations the training in high altitude, carried out with continuity and correct system with high volume and high specific intensity, can produce in the physiology of EVERY ATHLETE (so, not only Kenyans or Ethiopians) who decides to train in serious way living the most part of time in altitude (Sondre trained in altitude for 223 days before Fukuoka).

For now, you can see these data and have your conclusions.

Thanks Renato, looks rather interesting. It looks to me like a slight upward drift in Haemoglobin but reasonably stable. Didn't you say that Hb/Hct falls as you get fitter? Why was he tested 5 times last year when he only did like one 1/2 Marathon but only 3 times this year when he was everywhere? Rupp was tested 16 times in the last year.

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=8608722