Why is Sebastian Coe's technique considered the best?

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

Inquiry minds want to know wrote:

Wasn't Snell built like a football player; 5-10, 180 lbs or something along those lines?

Very big legs. But he was very good at tennis (still is but nowadays, table tennis).

Snell's running style/action reflects his stature.

Powerful runner.

Coevett wrote:

Yeah, back then the Moroccans were doping themselves so silly that you had sub or near sub 13 second guys who couldn't even be sure of getting in the national team so there was a lucrative market for their services elsewhere.

20 years later, with a bigger population and they can barely find anyone to break 13:15. The scary thing is they are probably still cheating, only being forced to micro-dose or limit themselves to certain periods and locations in the year (and still occasionally getting caught).

They're are definitely still cheating: five fresh positives in just this year alone:

iaaf-suspension-five-moroccan-athletes-ant

It must some kind of ritual or something in Morocco for their runners to dope. The current drug testing protocols and the ABP seem to mean nothing to them. And since the ABP was implemented in 09, they are second in sanctions with 10 for hematological anomalies behind Russia's world leading 35! So, either Moroccan athletes are getting bad doping advice or they simply just don't care pushing the envelope beyond micro-dosing and hoping no will notice. ?

Coevett wrote:

madras motor wrote:

Coe isn’t “white.” His mother is Indian (South Asian).

And I think has some Jewish ancestry, but now that leftys are openly anti-semitic again being Jewish is the ultimate form of white privilege to these people.

BTW, I thought his grandmother was Indian? Or if his mother is Indian, on of her parents is British? Ethnically, I don't think he is half Indian.

His mother’s father was Indian. Her mother white English.

So Seb is a quarter Indian.

No Jewish ancestry as far as I’ve come across, but I can imagine the majority of people in the UK could find some Jewish in their family if you go back far enough.

A lot of ignorance on this thread! Not you.

Deanouk wrote:

Coevett wrote:

And I think has some Jewish ancestry, but now that leftys are openly anti-semitic again being Jewish is the ultimate form of white privilege to these people.

BTW, I thought his grandmother was Indian? Or if his mother is Indian, on of her parents is British? Ethnically, I don't think he is half Indian.

His mother’s father was Indian. Her mother white English.

So Seb is a quarter Indian.

No Jewish ancestry as far as I’ve come across, but I can imagine the majority of people in the UK could find some Jewish in their family if you go back far enough.

A lot of ignorance on this thread! Not you.

I thought the majority of people in England were of Norman, Saxon & some Dane background? Didn't the Normans do a number on the Saxons at the battle of Hastings in 1000 AD and your Anglo-Saxons were created?

Sydney Maree's running form was quite impressive back in the day.

Re: "Also, if Coe, Cram and Ovett were taking roids, wouldn't it have slowed down their 1500m times? "

If this is a serious question, no, of course not. Increased anabolism, decreased catabolism, increased hematocrit, better body composition--all effects of anabolic steroids--are beneficial to all runners at any distance. Marathoners and Tour de France cyclists love testosterone just as much as 100 meter sprinters.

lol lol lol lol wrote:

Re: "Also, if Coe, Cram and Ovett were taking roids, wouldn't it have slowed down their 1500m times? "

If this is a serious question, no, of course not. Increased anabolism, decreased catabolism, increased hematocrit, better body composition--all effects of anabolic steroids--are beneficial to all runners at any distance. Marathoners and Tour de France cyclists love testosterone just as much as 100 meter sprinters.

But wouldn't they have had to use very small doses and refrain from weight training to avoid an increase in bulk & weight gain? I know a couple of middle-aged runners at the gym who told me they went on testosterone replacement therapy (gels) and gained too much weight that ultimately slowed down their times significantly, though they experienced better recovery from hard workouts. But there have been some roid positives over the years with some very big names who don't look overly bulky (e.g., Baumann, Sepeng, Saïdi-Sief).

Now in terms of increased hemacrit and a direct influence on the CV system, most of the studies with androgens & endurance performance show a marginal to no effect at all. So, I'm wondering if amphetamines were the choice with some athletes in the pre-EPO era. Amphetamines do significantly improve endurance excersise and there was widespread use with them in cycling throughout the 60s, 70s & 80s. In fact, cycling legend & GOAT, Eddy Merckx, had a few amphetamine positives in his career (imagine that).

Not Moroccan, but Moroccan born, Mourhit was sub 13 in 1999 as well.[/quote]

Yeah, back then the Moroccans were doping themselves so silly that you had sub or near sub 13 second guys who couldn't even be sure of getting in the national team so there was a lucrative market for their services elsewhere.

20 years later, with a bigger population and they can barely find anyone to break 13:15. The scary thing is they are probably still cheating, only being forced to micro-dose or limit themselves to certain periods and locations in the year (and still occasionally getting caught).[/quote]

Arabs are 'bad guys', much like males of European descent. Meanwhile, other people are allowed to dope with impunity because they fit the PC bill.

lol lol lol lol wrote:

Re: "Also, if Coe, Cram and Ovett were taking roids, wouldn't it have slowed down their 1500m times? "

If this is a serious question, no, of course not. Increased anabolism, decreased catabolism, increased hematocrit, better body composition--all effects of anabolic steroids--are beneficial to all runners at any distance. Marathoners and Tour de France cyclists love testosterone just as much as 100 meter sprinters.

Waldemar Cierpinski allegedly used steroids, so there are obvious benefits.

J. Acaster wrote:

lol lol lol lol wrote:

Re: "Also, if Coe, Cram and Ovett were taking roids, wouldn't it have slowed down their 1500m times? "

If this is a serious question, no, of course not. Increased anabolism, decreased catabolism, increased hematocrit, better body composition--all effects of anabolic steroids--are beneficial to all runners at any distance. Marathoners and Tour de France cyclists love testosterone just as much as 100 meter sprinters.

Waldemar Cierpinski allegedly used steroids, so there are obvious benefits.

First of all, if it was 'allegedly', the word 'obvious' does not follow.

Secondly, from what I've read, he blood doped.

@lol lol lo - and how many marathoners have been busted for steroids exactly? Steroids build muscle even without training, I'm not sure that would result in a 'better body composition' for a distance runner. Tour de France is a different sport.

Coe was one of the slightest built 800m runners, yet he pioneered weight training for middle-distance. He was allegedly juiced to the gills with steroids and spent days in Italian doping labs having his blood removed and then reinjected, yet ran the majority of his races in the UK which had the strictest testing in the world at the time. He led the campaign to have blood doping successfully banned in 85, and ran some of his best times after that past his peak and even in his 30s. He is also now probably the most scrutinized athlete in history due to his position and the ban on Russian athletes, yet nothing in the slightest has ever been found against him.

Coevett wrote:

First of all, if it was 'allegedly', the word 'obvious' does not follow.

Secondly, from what I've read, he blood doped.

In this story on Waldemar Cierpinski it references East Germany's State Plan 14:25 documents which supposedly states he was given performance enhancing "drugs." The story doesn't specifically mention that he was blood doping. I can't find the original 14:25 document to see if there's info on blood doping with E. Germany's marathoners/distance runners (do you have access to it by chance?).

Another report on East Germany's state-run dope program states that oral Turinabol was the steroid of choice for all of their athletes including all T&F and distance runners (the same steroid Russia was using with their female marathoners/distance runners per the recent doping scandal. Maybe the E. German marathoners were doing both? ?

Coevett wrote:

Coe was one of the slightest built 800m runners, yet he pioneered weight training for middle-distance. He was allegedly juiced to the gills with steroids and spent days in Italian doping labs having his blood removed and then reinjected, yet ran the majority of his races in the UK which had the strictest testing in the world at the time. He led the campaign to have blood doping successfully banned in 85, and ran some of his best times after that past his peak and even in his 30s. He is also now probably the most scrutinized athlete in history due to his position and the ban on Russian athletes, yet nothing in the slightest has ever been found against him.

+1

I don't think there has been any elite UK distance runner ever testing positive for PEDs nor linked to a doping scandal that I can recall?

I think Coe is the real deal - no evidence to the contrary.

Coevett wrote:

Coe was one of the slightest built 800m runners, yet he pioneered weight training for middle-distance. He was allegedly juiced to the gills with steroids and spent days in Italian doping labs having his blood removed and then reinjected, yet ran the majority of his races in the UK which had the strictest testing in the world at the time.

So, he saw benefits from weight training, but not from steroids? Is this a joke?

"the strictest testing in the world at the time" - you sure about that? Don't you remember that UKAD was founded because one couldn't trust the national federation(s)?

Either way, this "he never tested positive" is so lame, you really should stop using that as an argument.

rigid testing wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Coe was one of the slightest built 800m runners, yet he pioneered weight training for middle-distance. He was allegedly juiced to the gills with steroids and spent days in Italian doping labs having his blood removed and then reinjected, yet ran the majority of his races in the UK which had the strictest testing in the world at the time.

So, he saw benefits from weight training, but not from steroids? Is this a joke?

"the strictest testing in the world at the time" - you sure about that? Don't you remember that UKAD was founded because one couldn't trust the national federation(s)?

Either way, this "he never tested positive" is so lame, you really should stop using that as an argument.

Yes, he saw benefits from specific weight training, not from steroids which would build muscles everywhere and with weight training would certainly have turned him into something bigger than he was.

I don't know the history of the UKAD, but if what you're saying is true then I'm guessing it was due perhaps to the problems with Scottish sprinting at the time.

Nobody's saying 'he never tested positive' is his defence, we're saying there has not even been allegations outside of a few anonymous armchair halfwits on this forum and one minor American middle-distance peer who nobody remembers. The only 'argument' against Coe and the 80's middle-distance guys is the assumption of certain people here that 'everybody doped since the Ancient Greeks'. And again, if everybody dopes/doped, then Coe, Ovett, and Cram were still leaps ahead of the cheating North Africans. Even if they had been doping with steroids and the occasional blood doping, if they had what El G and the rest had in the 90s they would have been running under 3:25.

Coevett wrote:

Nobody's saying 'he never tested positive' is his defence, we're saying there has not even been allegations outside of a few anonymous armchair halfwits on this forum and one minor American middle-distance peer who nobody remembers. The only 'argument' against Coe and the 80's middle-distance guys is the assumption of certain people here that 'everybody doped since the Ancient Greeks'. And again, if everybody dopes/doped, then Coe, Ovett, and Cram were still leaps ahead of the cheating North Africans. Even if they had been doping with steroids and the occasional blood doping, if they had what El G and the rest had in the 90s they would have been running under 3:25.

Well, you used the out-of-competition tests as an argument.

As for "the only 'argument' against Coe...": No. Other arguments include how easy it was to dope back then (see Beyer and hundreds others from both sides of the iron curtain), and how successful these stars were compared to known drug cheats.

Look at your last statement (with which I agree): if they would have run 3:23 - 3:24 in that case (doped with the 90s PEDs instead of the 80s PEDs), what would they have run doped with the 90s PEDs instead of being clean? 3:21 - 3:22? 3:19 - 3:20 with the 2010s PEDs and bribing the IAAF? See where this goes?

And what about Coe's 1:41? If dirty, maybe 1:40 with modern PEDs? If clean, 1:38 with modern PEDs?

I have always believed Coe experimented with steroids pre-1984 Olympics dealing with his injuries. Very Paula Radcliffe-like in behavior when discussing doping.

.epopian wrote:

I have always believed Coe experimented with steroids pre-1984 Olympics dealing with his injuries. Very Paula Radcliffe-like in behavior when discussing doping.

Oh well if you believe then it must be so! The fact is you’ve offered nothing in the way of evidence to back up an opinion.

I fail to see how his view of doping is anything like Radcliffe’s, so perhaps you can explain what you mean by that cryptic gem.

In reality Coe has gone further than most athletes in condemnation of drug users since the very beginning of his career, openly calling for life bans as far back as 81, when he addressed the IOC congress. He also pushed for 4 year bans when Vice President of the IAAF , but they were taken to the Court of Arbitration and it was deemed against an athlete’s human rights. He also drew up the paper from the Sports Council that called for a ban of blood doping in 85. So unlike most athletes who just trot out a soundbite condemning drug to the press, he has actually been one of those who has actively campaigned to pass more stringent legislation against dopers. In that respect his view of doping is unlike that of Radcliffe or indeed any other competitor in the sport.

Watch out, Deano might jump on this holding onto Coe finishing the last 100m in 12.3 of the 1984 Olympic 1500m Final... no one cares when dudes have closed in 24 seconds (that 12 x 2 100m sprints) like Geb, Bekele, and Chebii.