This is how deep is doping in Kenya

rekrunner wrote:

Insecurity. Fear. Faith. Hope. Trust.

newname wrote:

Jon,

Can you tell us why drugs are used in distance running, XC skiing, swimming, and cycling then? There can be no debate that athletes use, have used and will continue to use them in all those sports. What physiological reason are they using them for?

-newname

Well said rekrunner.

All movement is conrolled by the nervous system. The nervous system is fundamental, not the aerobic system or the anaerobic system. I've been saying this for years.

Welcome to 2015. Some people know that your speculation aboutt the efficacy of EPO is just that. You clearlly don't understand doping psychology and its impact. And if you believe that blood doping is similarly effective, doesnt't that negate your premise since blood doping has been around since the late 60s?

farm assist wrote:

New rbcs work better than old stale blood. That's why EPO is better than blood doping.

When athletes recieve a reinfusion of their own blood, the old cells quickly die off, leaving the newer cells. Even with EPO there are going to be cells of different ages in circulation.

Jon Orange wrote:

I have a theory too wrote:

See, this statement is basically useless, yet you keep making similar statements that are essentially incomplete. What does 'use more oxygen' mean on it's own? More oxygen than what? A solidified block of concrete? It's a comparative but without the object or condition of comparison. Saying faster runners use less oxygen is equally useless. You have some blanks to fill in.

Use more oxygen in the race. The race Tom, not the solidified block of concrete, I was refering to the race. In that example it happened to be a marathon race. The total amount of oxygen, glycogen and fats that a slower runner uses is more than a fast runner

So faster runner cannot go faster? Not possible? Faster runner fails to increase oxygen consumption rate when increasing pace?

I edited out the ad hominem attack in your post to help reestablish civility.

Very entertaining thread, this. Good read. Continuare.

Only as fast as their current level of fitness permits. And what is it that determines this superior level of fitness?

Assuming that the top marathon runners have the lowest level of body fat which is 6% not the 3% figure that gets bandied about.

It is not a superior aerobic capacity or anaerobic capacity, but a combination of normal aerobic capacity, 5-6 liters per minute plus normal anaerobic capacity combined with superior efficiency.

And where does the superior efficiency come from?

If you are willing to extend the olive branch, then I ask a reasonable question, expecting a reasonable answer.

Jon Orange wrote:

All movement is conrolled by the nervous system. The nervous system is fundamental, not the aerobic system or the anaerobic system. I've been saying this for years.

Again, this is why you are reductionistic. Even while you accuse people with different opinions of being so.

It is all important.

There is no movement in the body without nerve innervation. That is basic physiology. Do you know what the word fundamental means?

It's not reductionist, you just don't know how to relate this to running.

A runner with basic health and fitness doesn't improve or increase aerobic or anaerobic capacity, it's genetic. Whilst it may appear that you make these improvements, it is the improvement in running skill which is being observed.

Jon Orange wrote:

farm assist wrote:

New rbcs work better than old stale blood. That's why EPO is better than blood doping.

When athletes recieve a reinfusion of their own blood, the old cells quickly die off, leaving the newer cells. Even with EPO there are going to be cells of different ages in circulation.

That's why EPO is better. You're learning slowly.

Jon, no physiology is basic. Stop trying to reduce it to one fundamental.

Many athletes make huge gains by doing vastly slower than race pace training that is doing nothing to practice nervous efficiency.

Because it gives them a better engine.

Geez Jon...you're ruining this excellent thread with your lack of manners. It's distracting...and it hurts your credibility. People that know what they are talking about don't behave like this.

Good post listing w.r , that showes the mountains of evidence

that "epo works for elites "

denial of that " epo doesnt work for elites"

makes you stupid or have an agenda like renato

trying to coverup the beyond obvious.

as for other 3 people who set w.r in 2000's

were with cera the best epo .

aint no coincidense that other qatari got hands

on cera too

why delete this post firtst time

PTF wrote:

Geez Jon...you're ruining this excellent thread with your lack of manners. It's distracting...and it hurts your credibility. People that know what they are talking about don't behave like this.

If only he were a blockhead and clueless like you.

Jon Orange wrote:

fred wrote:

Now Jonny, you know that you haven't posted one single piece of neuroscience.

All movement is conrolled by the nervous system. The nervous system is fundamental, not the aerobic system or the anaerobic system. I've been saying this for years.

This isn't yet neuroscience. You haven't posted any studies from Journals of Neuroscience showing how or why the nervous system is fundamental, and not the aerobic system.

Mythomaniac duck, you must know that when I was the coach in Qatar I was not the only one. The athlete caught for steroids was Musa Amer, during a training camp in Ifrane with his Maroccan coach, but also during a period he couldn't run because a stress fracture. The control arrived after 3 weeks he didn't train, and he continued not to train for other 5 weeks. Qatar Federation sent IAAF all the pictures of the stress fracture, and at the end the final answer of IAAF was "ok, we understand he didn't took steroids for enhancing his performances, but he was stupid enough for doing something not allowed. So, we recognize his "bona fide", but 2 years ban remain".

Another athlete used EPO was Abubaker Ali Kamal. He took EPO in 2011, before East Asian Games, receiving two years ban. He was original of Sudan, and was with me in training for a short period only (2009), when moved to steeple from shorter distances. In 2010 I resigned from Qatar, and I don't know what happened after that period.

My Kenyan-Qatari athletes always trained in Kenya (Iten), or in St. Moritz.

About Shaheen, he's the main reason because I believe EPO doesn't have effects with top runners of altitude. He could run very much faster, probably under 7'50" if we compare his training between 2004 (when bettered the WR) and 2006 (when was very much faster), Of course, we planned to try the WR in 2006 in one occasion only (in Zurich), and this didn't happen for a very bad work of the pacers. Never we could suppose he had to stop his career, only 24, for a stupid accident not connected with his athletic activity.

The fact he ran the WR, but also 12'48" in 2003 when was very much weaker, NEVER taking any supplement (including the legal), and I could see the real limits of a supertalented athlete (theorically faster than all the current WR), is one of the reason because I think EPO doesn't work for this type of athletes.

About you, are totally misinformed, and your main activity is to shoot off your mouth (in Italian we call your attitude "sparare cazzate").

You are obsessed by doping, and create in your sick mind a lot of conspiracies without any base. You are a big liar, but especially a very sick mental person. I suggest you to go to some psychoanalist, for removing the ghosts of doping you have in your mind.

Thedirty wrote:

You argument is drugs don't work because shaheen ran a 1248 without EPO? Wow. Seriously wow. Guess what, I ran a 1409 5k so that means drugs don't work because there's no way I could have ran any faster.

Bingo! A whiff of intelligence.

You can't be sure shaheen didn't use it anyways, but if he was clean he could of gone WR with drugs. That's why they're called "PERFORMANCE ENHANCING" drugs buddy.

Could have; not good of.

Hey I use performance enhancing water! In fact I just drank some this morning, and it's free! Well almost free. The city charges a mint for delivery. I use performance enhancing veggies, performance enhancing fruit, I do performance enhancing training, and have performance enhancing sleep every night, all of which are basically free.

Probably everyone thinks everything they do and believe is performance enhancing. Otherwise they'd do something else.

But you don't race and you're not getting faster so how can you kid yourself?

J.R. wrote:

Could have; not good of.

trollism wrote:

If you're gonna correct someone's post in order to try to gain the intellectual advantage....

You think "good of" is correct? Good grief.