THREE KENYANS BANNED FOR DOPING

Hey I don't have any answers -- just questions. OK, maybe some thoughts too.My thought is that these insane 5K splits likely burn more sugar more than fat. The one who wins that battle, without bonking, is the one who is burning more fat during the "sane" splits. Does EPO help you burn fat? I'm not sure anyone has ever claimed that. Is EPO recovery so responsive, that it happens during a race? I don't think anyone ever claimed that either.These "insane" late race attacks seem more tactical than optimal. It probably costs them time, from an optimal paced (and rabbited) trial.

adsjkl wrote:

Nobody has answered my question...

Is it EPO that allows these 2:05 guys to run 4:30s in the middle of a marathon and 14:teen 5k splits after 30k?

Even if Canova and others are saying it won't help the marathon it will sure as hell help one run these insane 5k splits and recover from them and maintain the pace they do all the way to the finish line.

Maybe if it was a perfectly even paced race it wouldn't help...though I still think it would over the last 10k as most of the 2:05 elites are not glycogen depleted as they are not out there for that long.

Thoughts?

i haven't asked them.

4% increase in FTP for epo microdosing

rekrunner wrote:

I did see a study where EPO increased time to exhaustion at some fixed "sub-maximal" effort on a bike (in a lab). I wondered at the time how that translates to running.

pseudoscience detector wrote:

That's just more druggie BS.

And the time to exhaustion was pitifully short. Having run a few marathons myself, my time to exhaustion was considerably longer, along with many thousands of others in the same race.

Obviously these studies are done on non elites.

When people give out numbers for hematocrit such as 55% they obviously have no idea how much extra red blood cells that involves. The normal count will be about 4 pints of RBCs and about 6 pints of plasma when fully hyrdrated, when dehydrated that may be 4 pints of each, quite a differnence. That's why heart rates can go up to 200 or over. In a well trained athlete, they will still be able to have a very high stroke volume, as well as the the high heart rate, usually a few beats below their true maximum as well a relatively high hematocrit, mid to high 40's.

Thus, oxygen delivery doesn't really have a limit in normal circumstances. Also, consider the fact that at the end of a race, the most confident runner gets an extra adrenalin surge, giving him/her another advantage.

I don't think 14:30 is all that crazy for a 2:05 effort. 2:05 averages out to 14:48/5k, so when guys surge they're naturally going to dip down into quicker splits. They also tend to blow up after doing that, which is the point.

you guys who are doing all this fancy footwork are ignoring the BASICS.

Kisorio and Kiptunai are TELLING YOU THAT KENYAN DOPING IS RAMPANT!!

This is from the horse's mouth.

Anything beyond this is sad rationalization. Do you think these people are so stupid that they'd be doing something that doesn't even work?

/EOT

Kisorio isn't fully credible. He's the equivalent of a jailhouse snitch looking for a better deal by accusing others. Standard operating procedure. Kiptanui said, in a very general sense that, sure others must be doing it, but the vast majority get there by hard work. Who are these others? Did he name anyone? Does he know of anyone or was he simply commenting on the news that some Kenyans had failed tests? Did Kisorio name anyone for that matter? Obviously, there is doping in Kenya (and every other country), but whether it's rampant remains to be seen and proved. I'd like them to roll up the athletes, managers, coaches, masseurs or whoever the hell else might be involved. There are a huge number of great clean Kenyan athletes who would benefit by getting the cheats out.

synched up wrote:

you guys who are doing all this fancy footwork are ignoring the BASICS.

Kisorio and Kiptunai are TELLING YOU THAT KENYAN DOPING IS RAMPANT!!

This is from the horse's mouth.

Anything beyond this is sad rationalization. Do you think these people are so stupid that they'd be doing something that doesn't even work?

/EOT

kisorio wasnt asking for anything - did you follow the story at all?

Also - he IS a top guy who was doping.

OVER

Kisorio was/is trying to get a reduced suspension.

engineering fancy man wrote:

kisorio wasnt asking for anything - did you follow the story at all?

Also - he IS a top guy who was doping.

OVER

any reference for that kisorio trying to get a reduced suspension?

synch wrote:

any reference for that kisorio trying to get a reduced suspension?

Some german guy says he may be looking for a reduced ban - I don't see how he comes to that conclusion.

I am not aware of any IAAF provision for reducing ban duration based on 'cooperation'.

Can you point me in the direction of one? Or do you think the IAAF will just announce 'kisorio is suspended for less time due to cooperation'?

It just seems unlikely.

You're right - it is highly unlikely he would receive any leniency from IAAf, but supposedly, he was interested in pursuing that angle w/ AK and IAAF. He spoke with Happelt around that time. At a minimum, he has been trying the "everyone else is doing it too" defense. Maybe some are. Maybe a lot are. At this point it's unknown.

(quote]synch wrote:

Some german guy says he may be looking for a reduced ban - I don't see how he comes to that conclusion.

I am not aware of any IAAF provision for reducing ban duration based on 'cooperation'.

Can you point me in the direction of one? Or do you think the IAAF will just announce 'kisorio is suspended for less time due to cooperation'?

It just seems unlikely.[/quote]

synch wrote:

Some german guy says he may be looking for a reduced ban - I don't see how he comes to that conclusion.

I am not aware of any IAAF provision for reducing ban duration based on 'cooperation'.

Can you point me in the direction of one? Or do you think the IAAF will just announce 'kisorio is suspended for less time due to cooperation'?

It just seems unlikely.

"(c) Substantial Assistance in Discovering or Establishing Anti-

Doping Rule Violations: The relevant tribunal of a Member may,

prior to a final appellate decision under Rule 42 or the expiration

of the time to appeal (where applicable in the case of an

International-Level Athlete having referred the matter to the

Doping Review Board for its determination under Rule 38.16)

suspend a part of the period of Ineligibility imposed in an

individual case where the Athlete or other Person has provided

Substantial Assistance to the IAAF, his National Federation, an

Anti-Doping Organisation, criminal authority or professional

disciplinary body resulting in the IAAF, National Federation or

Anti-Doping Organisation discovering or establishing an antidoping

rule violation by another Person or resulting in a criminal

or disciplinary body discovering or establishing a criminal

offence or the breach of professional rules by another Person.

After a final appellate decision under Rule 42 or the expiration

of time to appeal, an Athlete or other Person’s period of

Ineligibility may only be suspended by a Member if the Doping

Review Board so determines and WADA agrees.

If the Athlete or other Person establishes entitlement to

a reduction …then the period of

Ineligibility may be reduced or suspended but not below one quarter

of the otherwise applicable period of Ineligibility."

First off, thank you for taking your time to respond. I do appreciate it. After re-reading the post you wrote that I quoted, I noticed the paragraph below the lab values where you mentioned/asked how an increased Hct/Hemoglobin can make a runner run fast when it has been that they actually ran faster with lower values. Am I correct in interpreting the paragraph? If so, then my question would be--was the test taken ONLY after being at sea level for days/weeks when the runners had been at altitude or were the test taken ALSO during while they were altitude? In other words, I can see where the levels would drop at sea level at the same time they were doing and feeling good on the workouts. However, doesn't the good effect of training level off after being at sea level and if so does the Hct level continue to drop too? Or just when they are at altitude?

I guess what I'm trying to ask, can a fast runner run fast with low levels of Hct at both altitude and at sea level? In my mind, I find it hard for an elite athlete who trains solely on his/her talent and is anemic and yet does not get some sort of supplement/aid/nutrition in continuing his efforts to be world class? Again, please excuse my ignorance and the confusion of the questions. I'm just a curious poster.

Do you know these guys NEVER to lie or how can you tell they are not bitter that they were CAUGHT?

These guys aren't the right horses.

synched up wrote:

you guys who are doing all this fancy footwork are ignoring the BASICS.

Kisorio and Kiptunai are TELLING YOU THAT KENYAN DOPING IS RAMPANT!!

This is from the horse's mouth.

Anything beyond this is sad rationalization. Do you think these people are so stupid that they'd be doing something that doesn't even work?

/EOT

bump

Obviously there is some doping in Kenya, likely perpetrated by foreign coaches and agents for a tiny amount of athletes under pressure (from these same agents) to make the cut in in the world's deepest distance running talent pool. Those thinking they're on the verge of unearthing a doping programme on the scale of East Germany or cycling will be disappointed. Kenyans (and East Africans) will continue dominating the sport. There are scores of athletes who couldn't make the OG team due of AK's incompetence or peaking at the wrong time. Some very talented runners (I know a couple) still haven't had a chance.