"I already believe doping does work -- but only under some circumstances."(quote)
It never seems to have worked on those who've committed doping violations. Nor does it work on elite African marathon runners. It only seems to work on inferior athletes you've never heard of in sports you don't care about. Fortunately, antidoping isn't as dense or as gullible as you are.
"I already believe doping does work -- but only under some circumstances."(quote)
It never seems to have worked on those who've committed doping violations. Nor does it work on elite African marathon runners. It only seems to work on inferior athletes you've never heard of in sports you don't care about. Fortunately, antidoping isn't as dense or as gullible as you are.
I'm always prepared to listen to any tanglible evidence suggesting "works", e.g. steroids for increasing women's muscular strength.
I would even accept it can "work" on elite athletes when they are in a weakened non-elite state.
Anti-doping lawyers knew that they could never establish "works", so included non-limiting subjective language about "potential" to "work" to create a priori white lists and black lists of substances and methods in order to remove themselves from this unprovable discussion.
In response to a comment stating "No way Katir is clean," Katir replied:
"what hurts friend? while you criticize me that this is normal it is the nature of men when there is another man better than him they envy him, ask your wife if Katir is handsome or not 😼😼 surely your wife would be delighted to be with a winner not a loser."
Further down the thread, he claimed to have passed two drug tests yesterday.
Just another example that the saying "Cheaters never win" is false. He gets to keep his medals and all money associated with running revenue, when that money and those medals should be in the hands of his CLEAN competitors. What a cheater. There was never a doubt in my mind. But since he never failed a drug test he will be back in 2 years instead of 4. What a joke
I mean, how stupid is that. "You weren't home when we knocked." And then he gets banned. Yeah, how stupid is that.
“I do not consider that there is an infringement resulting from three localization failures in the last twelve months. In some of the localization failures reported by AIU, I was available in the place, date and time provided by me,” wrote Katir according to the Spanish running website Corredor (translated from Spanish).
Apparently they just drove by - if that - and didn't even bother to try and make contact.
Look here is the reality with Katir - in a 3 year stretch from 2018-2020 he ran 3.40, 3.37 and 3.36 - ages 20,21,22. He then dropped 8 seconds in a season to 3.28. That's not the same 8 seconds dropping from 3.50 to 3.42 or even 3.44 to a borderline world class 3.36 - that's 8 seconds into rare air that guys like Coe, Willis, Cram, even Daniel Komen never got into.
And I understand the rebuttal here - "well he was still young - only 22, so he was just maturing and it's not that crazy to comprehend" but it kind of is. To have the requisite talent to run this fast, it's usually becoming evident at an earlier age. Case in point Jakob who right now is only 4 tenths of a second faster than Katir lifetime, ran 3.31 at 17, 3.30 at 18, 3.28 at 19. Willis ran 3.36 at age 20 (same as Katir), 3.32 at 21 and then had to grind out almost 10 years of low 3.30 running every season until he finally broke through the barrier. Coe followed a similar pattern having run 3.32 at age 22 and had to wait 7 years of obviously quality performances before he broke the 3.30 barrier.
So this progression of Katir isn't normal and is more in line with a guy like Rashid Ramzi who went from running 3.39 to 3.30 in a season - funnily enough from the age of 22 to 23, exactly the same ages that Katir experienced his seismic jump. I guess we don't need any briefing on how Ramiz achieved that do we?
Throw into the mix that this jump happened during a period of time where we know for a fact that athlete isolation was at an all-time high because the world thought humanity was coming to an end, and there is a lot of anecdotal and circumstantial evidence that points to a high level of suspicion.
Also the way the human mind processes and rationalizes past actions is very complex. Maybe Katir right now is clean as a whistle. Maybe he has been for the past 2 seasons? Maybe that's enough in his mind to be able to claim he's clean and everyone else can go f--- themselves, I don't know.
I personally find his jump/rise to prominence hard to believe but that's just me and I could be wrong. Either way I find him just as believable as many others out there so good for him I guess.
Katir is the LEAST likely doper, because it's obvious he's always trying very hard. Most dopers make it look easy.
Is there a dope that can make you give 110% effort the whole way through? No, that's just something a few athletes can do but most can't. A mind thing.
Apparently "always trying very hard" is not a definite indicator of cleanliness after all
Look here is the reality with Katir - in a 3 year stretch from 2018-2020 he ran 3.40, 3.37 and 3.36 - ages 20,21,22. He then dropped 8 seconds in a season to 3.28. That's not the same 8 seconds dropping from 3.50 to 3.42 or even 3.44 to a borderline world class 3.36 - that's 8 seconds into rare air that guys like Coe, Willis, Cram, even Daniel Komen never got into.
And I understand the rebuttal here - "well he was still young - only 22, so he was just maturing and it's not that crazy to comprehend" but it kind of is. To have the requisite talent to run this fast, it's usually becoming evident at an earlier age. Case in point Jakob who right now is only 4 tenths of a second faster than Katir lifetime, ran 3.31 at 17, 3.30 at 18, 3.28 at 19. Willis ran 3.36 at age 20 (same as Katir), 3.32 at 21 and then had to grind out almost 10 years of low 3.30 running every season until he finally broke through the barrier. Coe followed a similar pattern having run 3.32 at age 22 and had to wait 7 years of obviously quality performances before he broke the 3.30 barrier.
So this progression of Katir isn't normal and is more in line with a guy like Rashid Ramzi who went from running 3.39 to 3.30 in a season - funnily enough from the age of 22 to 23, exactly the same ages that Katir experienced his seismic jump. I guess we don't need any briefing on how Ramiz achieved that do we?
Throw into the mix that this jump happened during a period of time where we know for a fact that athlete isolation was at an all-time high because the world thought humanity was coming to an end, and there is a lot of anecdotal and circumstantial evidence that points to a high level of suspicion.
Also the way the human mind processes and rationalizes past actions is very complex. Maybe Katir right now is clean as a whistle. Maybe he has been for the past 2 seasons? Maybe that's enough in his mind to be able to claim he's clean and everyone else can go f--- themselves, I don't know.
I personally find his jump/rise to prominence hard to believe but that's just me and I could be wrong. Either way I find him just as believable as many others out there so good for him I guess.
I'm glad this thread popped up again.
And what was proved right now?
That he doped? give your proof.
If there was doubts about her previous results the AIU would have removed them.
I hated the behavior of Katir toward the whereabouts ... that is killing himself stupidly but I'm not a hater like you trying to draw the cliché "I'm clean and the other is dirty".
Have your two balls and use your own runners instead of counting on import/export runners. Because the money you have and you have corrupted the world with it.
If there was doubts about her previous results the AIU would have removed them.
I hated the behavior of Katir toward the whereabouts ... that is killing himself stupidly but I'm not a hater like you trying to draw the cliché "I'm clean and the other is dirty".
Have your two balls and use your own runners instead of counting on import/export runners. Because the money you have and you have corrupted the world with it.
I honestly don't find Katir any more suspicious than the rest of the top guys. I remember it raised some eyebrows when he came out of the pandemic in superhuman shape and then faded in 2021, but this is his 3rd straight year now of being World Class.
Katir is the LEAST likely doper, because it's obvious he's always trying very hard. Most dopers make it look easy.
Is there a dope that can make you give 110% effort the whole way through? No, that's just something a few athletes can do but most can't. A mind thing.
Katir finished 7th in the Spanish championships in 2020.
His time of 3:36 was the 6th fastest in Spain that year.
That was his level in 2020.
The next year he ran faster than Cacho and missed the European record by 0.08 seconds.
Many people thought he would win the 1500m gold in Tokyo (he didn't run it).
What 'any number of reasons' other than EPO helps you go from 7th in Spain to the 2nd fastest ever in Europe in a matter of months, and then no visible progression in the next 2 years?
Yes he had a nice improvement from 2020 (a good year for him getting down to 7:44) to 2021 indoors, and then a substantial improvement between March and May from good Continental runner (7:35i, 4th in Europe) to one of the best in the world. I feel like we've been over it. You don't need to embellish with statements like "Many people thought he would win the 1500m gold in Tokyo (he didn't run it)." People would've favored Tim or Jakob and he was considered a contender in the 5,000, but by no means THE favorite. Or "no visible progression in the next 2 years" when he's run 7:24i and picked up some hardware last year as well as the biggest victory of his career a few days ago. He had a big drop from Fall 2020 to Indoor 2021 and then a really important one from there. Those are the facts, you don't need to misrepresent them.
This is a good example of Thoughtsleader's style of doping apologism, presenting itself as being cool and objective.
Everything I said in the post he was replying to was true.
Katir finished 7th in the Spanish Championships in 2020. All his other results that season suggest that was his level. The next year he beats Jakob in Monaco - who would win gold in Tokyo just one month later - and gave Tim, the silver medalist, a fantastic race in running 3:28. But for ThoughtsLeader, this is merely an 'important progression" that doesn't need to be dwelt upon.
"Many people thought he would win the 1500m gold in Tokyo (he didn't run it)."
The above statement I made was evidently true. On the trajectory he was on, he should have been in 3:26/7 shape in Tokyo. Of course many people thought he would win in Tokyo. He'd just ran faster than Jakob ever had, and the second fastest in European history. Only Tim appeared to be on the same level. Note I said "many people", not "most people" or "everybody".
He does the same with Manangoi, accusing me of having a 'weird obsession with him' when I point out that he never managed to break 3:36 on his return, despite missing only two years and training his behind off with Tim during that time, and despite claiming to be in 3:25 shape in the year he was suspended. Manangoi is a former world champion, so of course his shockingly poor performances since his suspension are relevant to the question of whether he was indeed a doper, itself of huge importance to the history of the 1500m and of the seriousness of doping in Kenya.
In other words, ThoughtsLeader likes to present himself as being an objective, unbiased cool head, fact checking myself and others in doping discussions. In fact, he's little different to Rekrunner - obfuscating and derailing doping discussions in a slightly more sophisticated way than the bot.
This thread is full of doping apologists claiming that those accusing Katir of doping are 'prejudiced' In fact, it should be obvious now that those who failed to see that Katir was the most obvious doper in history were themselves biased the other way - giving him the benefit of the doubt just because they didn't want to appear 'racist' in any way.
In response to a comment stating "No way Katir is clean," Katir replied:
"what hurts friend? while you criticize me that this is normal it is the nature of men when there is another man better than him they envy him, ask your wife if Katir is handsome or not 😼😼 surely your wife would be delighted to be with a winner not a loser."
Further down the thread, he claimed to have passed two drug tests yesterday.
This is a good example of Thoughtsleader's style of doping apologism, presenting itself as being cool and objective.
...
In other words, ThoughtsLeader likes to present himself as being an objective, unbiased cool head, fact checking myself and others in doping discussions. In fact, he's little different to Rekrunner - obfuscating and derailing doping discussions in a slightly more sophisticated way than the bot.
This thread is full of doping apologists claiming that those accusing Katir of doping are 'prejudiced' In fact, it should be obvious now that those who failed to see that Katir was the most obvious doper in history were themselves biased the other way - giving him the benefit of the doubt just because they didn't want to appear 'racist' in any way.
"Doping apologism" seems to be the wrong phrase to describe what happens in these threads. Maybe we don't agree what "doping apologism" is.
Doping apologists are the ones who say, after it is known that someone doped, that the athlete did nothing wrong by doping, and it is OK for doped athletes to dope, because (reasons). Neither Thoughtsleader, nor I, take that point of view, nor argue that doping should be acceptable.
The way you respond to your failure to support your baseless allegations as "doping apologism" is premature and dishonest rhetoric.
It is not biased to give people the benefit of the doubt. It is morally questionable whether we should remove that benefit in order to make speculative baseless allegations that harms athletes (and the sport).