50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

HRE wrote:

I want to second Alan here in a major way. Racing and training are two different animals. There are loads of threads here about "What can I run for X distance based on these workouts" and I think such threads are largely useless because racing is not training and there are other factors that come into play in determining your race performances. Your training sessions are a big part of how you'll race but they absolutely are not deterministic. Very few people's races equal the sum of their training. Some people race better than their training. Others generally race worse and many people race better at some times and worse at other times.

I want to third Alan... I very rarely hit race pace in a workout. Maybe on some shorter rep stuff and 3-4 mile tempo's...It always amazes me how running a bunch of miles at 7:00-7:30 pace over the winter can get me in shape to race at 5:30 pace in the Spring.

One guideline my training partner and I use...While training for a HM, whatever pace I can run for a 4 mile tempo is pretty close to what I can do for 13.1

Guess it's the magic of the race!

Dave

Resting HR this morning was 55, one of the highest numbers in years. I'm fed up with not being recovered, have decided to not run another step until it is 44 two days in a row. No matter how long that takes. I'll use the extra time for sleep.

Hey all. Thanks for the support. By all accounts it was a pretty rough weekend; lot's of unpleasant peripheral issues affected by, but unrelated to, the cancer. But we'll get through it all; family is family. And thanks, Rtype, on the workout comment; I'll be heading out to the "track" later today and see what we can manage tonight (now that it's about 45 degrees warmer, and my allergies are acting up in full force, ugh!)

Thinking about you, Ken, and your brother as you undergo the bone marrow transplant process. Courage, strength, support, and best of luck to you both! I'll see what I can do about using the app for your foundation; I've never used my iPhone when I run.

Congrats to DrT. You have quite an adventure ahead of you! Soak in every moment, they grow up so fast!

Add me to the list of those that don't fret too much about how hard race pace feels in workouts. But if you want a general rule of thumb (and please don't read too much into it), for me I find that I can usually hold race-pace in a workout for about 1/3rd the race distance...give-or-take. That seems to jive with what racerdb is saying. Also, I don't think that rule would translate up to the marathon distance, as too much happens in the last 10k.

Speaking of racerdb. Wow Dave, nice run! Less is not always less. And KP, your mile that about jives with your interval workouts from a few week's back...now that we've poo-pooed trying to connote the two. Haha.

Alan B., I'm not sure a dress-rehearsal would work too well for me, and I especially don't think I could ever use an actual HM race for such....I could see myself holding to the plan for a mile or so, but after that, if I was feeling good, my competitive juices would kick in and I'd just go for it. If I ventured to guess, I'd say your yoyo-ing was probably the result of trying to hold back under race conditions, when your natural tendency was to race.

Mike L, I totally understand what you mean about feeling like there is/should be more there and that there are governors in place (from time constraints and non-running related fatigue, to more basic neural or tendon limitations, etc.) that make it hard to tap into. I'm happy to take what I can get....and hopefully get to the startline (one of these days!!) healthy.

MikeF, too bad you couldn't make it to Eugene. As to the Carlsbad masters races, I guess it was more tactical this year as socal such mentioned in his thread entry (hard to imagine a masters race of 15:40 as tactical---it's all relative, isn't it) A couple of really nice times at the Sac Town 10-miler: Kevin Castille besting the US 40-44 record, Brian Pilcher @56 running sub-56. I wonder how many can run under their age in minutes in a 10-miler. I think he is the only one that did at this race....the age-grade % bottoms out at 86.17% around age 72 (...but now I'm just wasting time.)

Thanks Alf T for chiming in. Sorry about your bad luck and bad weather.

GreteHund, tough loss for UMich. Louisville won this battle of equals.

A lot of good motivating stuff this week, as per usual! Thanks!

lucKY2b wrote:...as socal such...

...as socal cush...

thanks, autocorrect.

Also, Alan B., for me, this time of year my rest heart-rate goes up naturally (or anti-histamine induced) as I fight spring allergies. It lasts about a month. Just a thought.

Been up north to see the grandchildren for a few days it was my 56th birthday.

Congrats DrT.

Sorry to hear about your father inlaw luCky2b,

woc just hang in there.

mon 10:85 @ 80%

tues 10:20 progression run start @ 65-70% every 2 mile increase by 10%.

weds 8:10 easy 65%

thurs 9:80 hills 12x70sec @85-95%

fri 10:60 @75%

sat 10:10 cruise intervals 2x2miles

sun 13:10 @ 70% 1hr 36min

weeks total = 74:75 miles

Legs have been a bit sore this week you all take care keep on running.

ps looking forward to Boston this mon

Pieced together week

45 miles

SUN: 10.4 miles rolling hills, easy effort

MON: 5.5 miles group effort, 8:30 pace

TUE: colonoscopy, no run, lots of sleep

WED AM: 7 miles, 7:33 pace

WED PM: 5 easy jog

THR: no run

FRI: 30 minutes, logged as 3.5 miles

SAT: 1:33:42 half marathon as a 1:35 pace group leader

OK, I had my first colonoscopy. Everything OK. Prep for that seemed to be not unlike marathon prep carb depletition...until I started drinking the stuff on Monday night. Wednesday afternoon I called my wife to tell her what the kids were up to and that I was going to run. "Really?" She sounded odd, and continued "The nurse said no exercise today." I thought it best to not tell her I did a 7 mile tempo run earlier in the morning.

Thursday my son had an MRI and doctor visit that lasted until mid afternoon. By then thunderstorms were in the area so I... just didn't run. The rain did wash the pollen away.

A first time half marathon started about a mile from my house and covered areas I regurally run (for the part of the country we live, it's a great running environment! It's no Eugene, and it's not at altitude, but I like it.) I've never participated with a pace group because I think it's a race and not a time trial if they shoot a gun and the first person back gets a prize. However, I was offered a comped an entry to run 1:35 so I couldn't pass that up. Finished in 1:33 with the 2 guys with me both going PR. Felt good with that effort.

April is my favorite month...my birthday, wedding anniversary, beginning of baseball, sometimes Easter, and BOSTON! I'm excited for those kids on Monday- looks like they are going to get a break from last year's heat.

WOC- big week ahead, got your family in my thoughts.

Alan B- I can't find a correlation between performance and RHR, but I do use it to monitor fatigue. I keep moving but just scale it back a bit.

Alf- a belated Happy Birthday!

Grete- I oft wonder how I am able to manage race pace with the slow pace of my training miles. Ed Whitlock may have that figured out as a master?

et al- keep it up.

Wishing all (including our Aussie and European friends) a happy Patriots Day on Monday,

Edgewood

I just turned 50 and am looking forward to competing.

Training - check

Diet - check

TUEs - check ;)

My point on the tempo run was not to stress out too much on the actually time per mile. Don't bother looking at your watch - just try to do the right effort. Tempo run is lactate threshold - this is a state that you should be able to FEEL and it's something you cannot fake. If you are going too fast for your body, you won't be able to clear the lactate from your legs and you'll have to slow down.

If you just run at the right effort, your body will become more efficient at it and the pace will get faster, even if you don't increase the effort. If you aren't timing everything, you probably won't even notice as it will feel the same.

GreteHund, I liked that workout at 6:45 pace - that's a good one. There you are trying out your race pace for the 1/2 marathon, but are breaking it down into manageable chunks. That's a good way to practice pace without making it too hard.

I'd suggest running your half-marathons by "feel" - should feel like your tempo pace and for the marathon, only use your watch to ensure you aren't going out too fast (i.e. your tempo pace) for the early miles.

FWIW, I run ridiculously slow compared to my races. I often run my long runs on trails at about 10 min./mile. When I'm running on the roads, I figure I'm running 9 min/miles - maybe 8:30s if I'm feeling very good. I run my tempos by feel, often on grass (which is slower), but in general am probably running about 7 min/mile, maybe a little faster.

On the rare occasion that I venture to the track, I'm seriously shocked that I can manage 5k pace (~6:20-6:25). I race xc races at 6k on grass at around 6:30-6:40 pace and that's supposed to be slower because of terrain. I only run "fast" once a week - more than that, I could feel "overtrained." My daughter finds it baffling that I just waddle along most of the time - much slower than her teammates - and yet I can beat about half of them in a race.

YMMV

Mon - Nothing except a late night walk/shuffly trot.

Tue - 15km run as 16 x 5 mins with 30 sec walks on rolling trail loops.

Wed - 55 mins pretty quick ride on hilly course.

Thu - 45 mins kyak.

Fri - Rode the mtn bike into Bendigo along the O'Keefe Rail Trail, about 25k. Did some shopping then rode back. Return was pretty hard and fast as it was getting dark.

Sat - 3k warmup plus some strides, 3k trail race 12.20, 1.5k warmdown. Shuffled through another 5.6k in the late evening.

Sun - 4k warmup and strides, 5k (actually about 4.8k)trail race 19.23. 3k warmdown.

A light week for several reasons.

My beautiful grand daughters were staying with us sunday- wednesday.

Monday I was asked to fill in for someone at work on an early shift 6am until 8.30pm, just in time to say good night to the girls. I had hoped to finish on time (5pm) but no such luck.

Went out later for a walk/jog around town.

Tuesday. Had the day off so I snuck out for a run while the girls went out visiting their Uncle/Aunty.

I had friday off work but my wife was working a late shift so I drove to Axedale about 20k away and rode the bike into Bendigo to pick up a pair of shoes and a few bits and pieces. The ride back was good with a slight tailwind and generally slightly downhill so I hammered it at 30+kph, pretty good for me on the mtb and patchy dirt trails.

Saturday's race went ok, chose the 3k ahead of the 5k feel the extra bit of pace might nudge my fitness along. The course is pretty easy but a bit patchy under foot.

Ran a tick over 20 last year for the 5k so I was happy enough with 12.20. Felt much sharper than the previous week.

Sunday's "5k" course is undulating trail, also has patches of poor footing and a few washouts, tree roots, rocks etc.

I noticed they started and finished about 100m shorter than last year. I'd checked the course measurement last year so knew we would be about 200m short.

I struggled early but picked up on the first significant uphill. From there I felt I was really motoring. Passed about 10 runners from the 1k onwards. A km from home I started to struggle and could only try to hold form over the last part of the course.

My long time O/50 rival Terry had been in my sights for about 3k but in the end he steadily pulled away to beat me by 40 secs. A bit of work ahead of me yet, but still a pleasing run given where I was at 6 weeks ago with the ankle.

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Week 97

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Greetings 50+ers. T’was yet another sorrowful week of “training” (if you can call it that.) Between the traveling and the allergies, I only managed ~23 miles on 4 days of running.

Sun: 5.7 easyish (7:15 average) in Marion, AR

Mon: 5.0 easy (7:30 average) still in Marion, AR

Tue: 0 (going on 3-½ hours sleep and then teaching all day)

Wed: 6.1 w/6x(1 lap in 76-77s, ½ lap recovery in 58-61s) remember, each lap is ~4.5-5s short of a 400m.

Thur: 6 easy (7:40 pace)

Fri: 0 (head felt under water, balance way off)

Sat: 0 (head still ready to explode)

Comments:

As far as consistency goes, this spring has been the worst. It has culminated in the most oppressive allergy attack I’ve ever experienced. I’ve been hacking and wheezing for two weeks now. Usually I can ride it out, and get back to normal after suffering through the week or so, but it finally overwhelmed me. By the time I’d finished my run Thursday, I was in pretty sorry shape. Even after a storm passed through Thursday evening and knocked down the pollen count, the allergens had consumed my body and my head felt ready to explode by Friday morning; I couldn’t hear myself talk and even felt a little unstable when I walked. Saturday was a little better, but I felt it was best to take another day off, as running seemed to be making things worse. My wife and I took a nice evening stroll, so I think I’m on the up-tick. I keep telling myself to see an allergist, but I have no desire to be put on any kind of medications, and it has always subsided soon enough. This may be the year that I’ve had enough.

I hacked and wheezed my way through Sunday and Monday’s maintenance runs down in the delta flat-lands of Marion, AR. (Note: We talked with the surgeon Monday afternoon, regarding my wife’s dad, and he thinks chemo first to shrink the tumor, then surgery after his strength improves, followed by more chemo. Her dad will have to weigh his options, and decide what he wants to get out of the rest of his life. My wife’s still having troubles coming to terms with the whole thing.) We drove home from Arkansas Monday night, where I only managed a few hours of sleep before getting up and teaching all day Tuesday. Between the lack of sleep and the overall allergy issues, I couldn’t drag myself out the door in the mid-afternoon when I had a break.

Wednesday’s workout wasn’t quite what I’d planned. Probably ran them too hard without enough rest, so by 6 reps, I was pretty well spent. The buddy I was running with also concurred that they were too fast. It would have been better to have backed off 4-5s to each rep and doubled the volume…but, allergies notwithstanding, it did feel good to hit the faster pace.

I’m feeling much better today, still a little congested, but I’ll probably get a run in this evening with the club. I sure hope the whole tree pollen episode is behind me and I can get back to “normal.”

That’s about all I got. Hope you all are doing better. It’s nice to see some races coming in, and good luck to those running Boston on Monday. Looking forward to your all's reports.

Take care.

Seems like all the kids are doing it so why shouldn't we?

I'm talking Spring Break...spent the week in Chicago eating too much fattening food, hanging at Wrigley to see our team eek out a win against the Cubbies, jogging along the Lake Michigan waterfront, then pounding some more deep dish pizza.

Anyone who understands a "periodized " approach to training understands the importance of pre-determined downtime. My 'Spring Break' is exactly that...a mental and physical break before heading into 14 high intensity weeks of training and racing

Highlights of this week include the announcement that US Olympic Track & Field Trials will be back in Eugene in 2016 ( shall be my 10th Olympic Trials)...bumping into a pair of red kangaroos while on an exploratory jog of the city (I happened to meander right through the middle of the Lincoln Park Zoo) and finally, I look forward to lounging about all Sunday afternoon to drink in the final round of the Masters ( its a golf thing not an old person''s track meet FYI)

So what did you do on YOUR Spring Break??

Have a fine week and remember to 'train don't strain'

MF

Happy Birthday Alf, and thanks to you and all the folks for your kind words re the arrival of our son - they are most appreciated.

Lucky, Sorry to hear about your father in-law......

mo'pak, nice work on the trail races... they sound awfully short and painful to me...

I took the week off work to be with the new family and have enjoyed every moment being away from the office and spending more time at home....

Sun: (am) 25km on hilly trails. Still feeling after effects of the virus of the previous week.

Mon: (am) 13km easy + 10 x 8sec hill sprints, pm 6km easy.

Tues: 5km tempo in 19.20, av HR 90%, 5min jog, 6 x 200m hills (av 50secs).

Wed: am 18km on hilly trails, pm 90min on my road bike

Thurs: (am) 6km easy, (pm) "quarters" total time for 4.8km 18.22

Fri: 60mins E, pm massage

Sat: 25mins easy, then 50mins tempo (av HR 86%), (pm) 45min very easy on grass.

Reasonably happy with the week. Felt rough on the Tuesday 5km tempo, and was disappointed to have gone backwards on the Thursday quarters (I should be getting these down under 18mins for the session by now. I was with a group and tried to hang on to 85s/50s, however I was spat out the back after about 4 laps - An unforgiving session. I did however I did feel a million bucks on Saturday's tempo.

Good luck to all during the coming week with all endeavors.

[quote]Alan Bennet wrote:

Resting HR this morning was 55, one of the highest numbers in years. I'm fed up with not being recovered,[quote]

Not that anxiety or anything like that would have anything to do with it...

one of the most overstated barmoters is the morning HR.

The icy grip will not let go! We're still experiencing February weather with no end in sight.

40 miles for the week (plus 2 hr cross training), including 4X 1 mile threshold on the treadmill on Tuesday and 5K in 17:37 on Saturday. It's coming around a bit early this year, even if the weather isn't! Downside is my heel was a bit sore after the run, something I'll have to watch.

mon 3 mile easy

tues 5:60 mile easy

weds 10:41 mile steady @ 74% (72 min)

thurs 10:25 mile "hill ladders" 1min,2min,1min,3min,1min,2min,1min x2 85-95%

fri 11:01 mile steady @75% (77 min)

sat 10:47 mile "4x2km 87-92%/ rec 400mtrs @80%"

7:23,7:30,7:30,7:22

sun 13:01 mile easy @ 70% legs stuffed

63:70 miles week total

My hill work as moved on I am now able to pick up and sprint at the end of each effort not just grind it out.The 2km I did on the track I found I didn't fade away but remained strong but then i am glad i only did 4 lol.You all take care

not kilgore wrote:

Not that anxiety or anything like that would have anything to do with it...

one of the most overstated barmoters is the morning HR.

It's not as sensitive as some people claim, but it's not useless either. I don't use it like "my resting HR is up 3 bpm, I should take an easy day". I use it like "my resting HR is up 10 bpm, something's up!".

The lowest I have recorded in recent years is 39. A typical high-mileage week it will be 44-46, rarely 42-43. 50 or above I adjust my training. And I am one of the least anxious people you would meet. If the taper goes right, the morning of my marathon it will be 40 or 41. Anyway why would I be anxious two days AFTER a dress rehearsal?

55 is a number I would expect to see while strolling around.

+1

Oh, and 18th in M60-64? Still far ahead of the more than 2.5 million of your cohort who chose not to compete.

Whewwee lucKY, hope you get well soon. Maybe frame it as a nice opportunity to allow some of those nagging irritants heal up a little better?

Mike, my last two kids were home all week so they were actually kinda annoying since they wanted to stay up all night. Maybe I should have gone somewhere…..

My week:

Mon = 3, first run in shorts!

Tue = 3, 84 degrees. Spring/Summer?

Wed = 3, 92 degrees, record since 1922

Thu = 0

Fri = 0

Sat = 3, on track, tweaked left heel

Sun = 3, nice, soft, steep mountain trails

Total Miles = 15

Let’s see, last week it was winter, got to run in snow. This week, summer, running in 92+ heat breaking 90 year old records. Spring? Well, today finally spring.

It was a good week where my fitness improved incrementally. I felt so good I ventured out to the track on Sat. That was a mistake. When I accelerated just a bit, it was a bit too much and I tweaked that left heel again. I did the same workout as last week on the same track and at the same pace but for some reason the heel did not like it and flared up immediately after the workout. This is frustrating. I swear I need one of those tracking bracelets that alerts authorities when I get near a track. Because every time I do, I do something naughty. "JUST STEP AWAY FROM THE TRACK AND NO ONE WILL BE HURT!"

Well, anyway, I guess I did not hurt myself too bad as I had a nice spring-like run on the mountain trails today and that seemed to help a lot. I guess I have a threshold when I push off with my foot and when it is exceeded I irritate WHATEVER it is in that heel. I'm sure I have residual scar tissue, and maybe even a bit of PF secondary to recovery from the stress fracture.

Hope to see some race reports since there were 10’s of thousands yesterday.

I finally was back to 50 miles for this week. This was the first week since I got sick in early March that felt pretty normal for running again. Next week I'll try to get about 6-8 more miles in and include one workout if all goes well.