Ryan Hall shouldn’t be on the top 20 list over some of those people you listed as on the cusp.
Ryan Hall shouldn’t be on the top 20 list over some of those people you listed as on the cusp.
Bob Kennedy over Bob Schul. Really?
Bob Schul has an Olympic gold medal at 5000m.
Bill Dellinger should also be ahead of Bob Kennedy. Dellinger went to three Olympics and has an Olympic bronze at 5000m.
indoorszn wrote:
Get all these old timers outta this thing. Their times can’t touch what the elites do these days.
You wouldn’t be the greatest hitter of all time if you hit well in 1950 but there’s now 50 guys who can hit like that.
Yet none of the new generation can match DiMaggio's 56 game streak of 1941. No one, even Tony Gwynn, can match what that old timer did.
It's not only about times, but how did one fare against those they competed against.
Some stats might help create some criteria.
The American Women for me are clear cut at this point. Let me provide my criteria: 1) Olympic performances are prioritized above all else; 2) I kept this to 1964 to modern day to give a recency bias perspective -
Women
Legendary
Madeline Manning, Joan Benoit, Lynn Jennings, Kim Gallagher
Next Cut
Deena Kastor, Shalane Flanagan, Jenny Simpson, Emma Coburn
Men
Legendary
Frank Shorter, Billy Mills, Matt Centrowitz, Dave Wottle, Bob Schul, Galen Rupp
Next Cut
Jim Ryun, Meb Keflezighi, Leo Manzano, Paul Chelimo, Evan Jager
Third Layer
Bill Dellinger, Brian Diemer, George Young, Earl Jones, Johnny Gray, Rick Wohlhuter, Clayton Murphy, Tom Farrell
This is the nomination phase of the exercise, not the voting. But I knew that most wouldn't be capable of following the rules. And we don't need criteria or there would be no need to go through the contest. Everyone has their own internal set of criteria just like they do in a presidential election. If firm criteria are established, then a computer program could determine the winner.
predictor wrote:
This is the nomination phase of the exercise, not the voting. But I knew that most wouldn't be capable of following the rules. And we don't need criteria or there would be no need to go through the contest. Everyone has their own internal set of criteria just like they do in a presidential election. If firm criteria are established, then a computer program could determine the winner.
Runing SHOULD be objective. But some people put too much emphasis on the accomplishments of older slower runners and some put alot less.
One factor that people aren't talking about is how much easier it was to be a world champion in the 60s and 70s compared to the 2000s or 2010s. Especially when the african countries came in started training properly and caught up to the rest of the world. Running is much more global now and obviously faster. so sure some of these guys were like top ten in the world when they were in highschool or something but there is a reason why we will never see that happen again. I do realize that modern runners benefit from more advanced training and its not fair that older runners did not have that but faster is faster for me.
honestly early distance running reminds me of the nba when there were less teams. or like when we had someone like wilt chamberlain setting all those records simply because the league had not yet drafted the proper talent to match him.
John Wesley Harding wrote:
I think this is a reasonable approximation of the top-20:
1. Frank Shorter - Probably the 3rd “greatest” marathoner ever after Kipchoge and Bikila and has an unprecedented legacy in U.S. distance running
2. Jim Ryun - 3 Olympics including silver in ‘68, achieved almost rockstar status from ‘65-‘67 when he was the best mid-D runner in the world and lowered WRs at 880y/1500/mile
3. Bernard Lagat - Standing AR-holder at 1500, 3000 & 5000, 5 WC medals (2 gold) & 3 Olympics while representing U.S., nearly unbeatable domestically from ‘05-‘16
4. Galen Rupp - 4-time Olympic qualifier and 2-time Olympic medalist, PBs of 3:50.9i/7:30.2i/12:58.9/26:44(AR)/2:06:07, best U.S. 10k man ever (sorry Billy Mills)
5. Mal Whitfield - 2 x Olympic gold in ‘48 & ‘52, 5x #1 rankings from ‘48-‘53, won 66 of 69 races at 800/880y from June ‘48 through ‘54, 1:47.9 PB in ‘53
6. Bill Rodgers - Won Boston and NYC 4x each between ‘75-‘80, ranked #1 in ‘75, ‘77 & ‘79, collected wins in Amsterdam, Fukuoka, Toronto, Houston, Stockholm, etc., 2:09:27 PB in Boston ‘79 made him #4 AT
7. Johnny Gray - Record 11 top-10 rankings from ‘84-‘96, 4 Olympic finals earning bronze in ‘92, broke 1:43 in 4 seasons, 1:44 in 11 seasons and ran 1:45.50 or better in 18 straight seasons, 1:42.60 PB made him #4 AT in ‘85
8. Matt Centrowitz, Jr. - Perennial world and Olympic finalist, winning Olympic gold in ‘16 & lesser WC medals in ‘11 & ‘13, PRs of 1:44.6/3:30.4/13:00.4
9. Steve Scott - Ranked #1 in U.S. at 1500/mile 10 times and ranked top-10 in the world 11 times, earned silver at the ‘83 WC and missed his best chance at an Olympic medal due to the boycott, held mile AR (3:47.69) for 25 years and broke 4:00 more than anyone in history
10. Meb Keflezighi - 4-time U.S. Olympian taking silver in the marathon in ‘04, former 10,000 AR-holder (27:13), major marathon wins in NYC ‘09 & Boston ‘14
11. Khalid Khannouchi - At one time held 3 of the 4 fastest marathon performances (2 as a U.S. citizen, including the WR), still holds AR at 2:05:38, won London (‘02) and Chicago 2x (‘00, ‘02) for the U.S.
12. Craig Virgin - 3x Olympic qualifier missed his best chance for a medal due to the 1980 boycott, former 10k AR-holder at 27:29 which made him #2 AT ca. 1980, his greatest achievement is winning world XC in ‘80 & ‘81
13. Steve Prefontaine - AR-holder at every distance from 2,000-10,000 at the time of his death, very tough to beat domestically from ‘71-‘75, heartbreaking 4th at ‘72 games, immortalized legacy
14. Ryan Hall - Fastest American marathoner under any conditions (2:04:58, Boston ‘11) & #3 officially (2:06:17), 2-time Olympian, 4 x U.S. #1 marathon rankings, AR-holder at 1/2 marathon (59:43)
15. Billy Mills - Surprise Olympic gold at 10,000 in ‘64 in Olympic record time, went on to set 10k AR (28:17) and tie the 6-mile WR (27:11) in ‘65
16. Alberto Salazar - Former 10k AR-holder (27:25), ranked world #1 at the marathon in ‘81 & ‘82, won NYC 3x (‘80-‘82) and Boston ‘82 with CRs at both, ran 21” under the WR in NYC ‘81 which proved ~148m short
17. Dathan Ritzenhein - 3-time Olympian, former 5,000 AR holder, bronze at 2009 world 1/2 marathon champs, PRs of 12:56.2/27:22/60:00/2:07:47
18. Bob Kennedy - 2 time Olympic 5k finalist, former AR-holder at 3k (7:30.8), 2 mile (8:11.6) and 5,000 (12:58.2), 9x #1 U.S. rankings at 5,000
19. Sydney Maree - Former AR-holder at 1500 (3:29.77), mile (3:48.8), 3,000 (7:33.4) & 5,000 (13:01.1), placed 5th in ‘88 Olympic 5,000, #2 AT at 1500 & #3 at 5,000 ca. 1985
20. Bob Schul - Had an amazing year in 1964, going undefeated outdoors while setting the 5,000 AR (13:38) and the 2 mile WR (8:26.4) and winning Olympic gold with a stellar kick, won the ‘65 U.S. 3-mile champs in 13:10 AR before retiring from injury
Wottle, Symmonds, Solinsky and Jager would be among the next up.
Great list. I'd put Pre a little lower and Mills and Schul a little higher.
westsouthrunner wrote:
predictor wrote:
This is the nomination phase of the exercise, not the voting. But I knew that most wouldn't be capable of following the rules. And we don't need criteria or there would be no need to go through the contest. Everyone has their own internal set of criteria just like they do in a presidential election. If firm criteria are established, then a computer program could determine the winner.
Runing SHOULD be objective. But some people put too much emphasis on the accomplishments of older slower runners and some put alot less.
One factor that people aren't talking about is how much easier it was to be a world champion in the 60s and 70s compared to the 2000s or 2010s. Especially when the african countries came in started training properly and caught up to the rest of the world. Running is much more global now and obviously faster. so sure some of these guys were like top ten in the world when they were in highschool or something but there is a reason why we will never see that happen again. I do realize that modern runners benefit from more advanced training and its not fair that older runners did not have that but faster is faster for me.
honestly early distance running reminds me of the nba when there were less teams. or like when we had someone like wilt chamberlain setting all those records simply because the league had not yet drafted the proper talent to match him.
Hence the difficulty of "all time" titles.
Your simplifying of the process makes this year's title moot before it is awarded because next year's results are more modern therefore better.
My criterion for my nomination (s)
1. Definition of distance. 800/1500 is not. But, it's not my contest.
2. Medals/Records-times/Body of Work/Who did you beat? Some years are more competitive.
3. Influence/Impact on running community.
I'll stick with my men's order of:
Shorter: clear of all others in my mind.
Rogers
Rupp:. Probably move up when finished.
Women:
Benoit: clear of all others in my mind.
Deena
Jennings
John Wesley Harding wrote:
yawntown wrote:
Ryan Hall shouldn’t be on the top 20 list over some of those people you listed as on the cusp.
Oh yeah, why?
I will say that I think Nick Symmonds might be underrated by the LRC crowd at large, for being such a ridiculous, self-promoting douche.
Because he was never close to being the best in the world, unlike the others you listed. 10th in the Olympics and only twice he was third in marathon majors in his whole career, never better. The other guys have silver and golf medals.
gold*
I will continue to put my plug in. I am excited to get this started. I have already looked up information on a few runners that I was unfamiliar with so the idea already has been a success in my opinion. That is the real point of an exercise like this, to appreciate accomplishments. We all have our own idea of who the best are based on our own criteria. I also recommend against limiting it to 32 because that will inevitably eliminate some valid nominees based on the moderators' preferences.
I'm here too late to offer the obvious choices, but seeing how deep some of these choices have gone, I will add these that seemed to have been missed:
Mark Croghan - three time Olympian and five time US National Champ in the steeplechase
Mark Nenow - Held the American record in the 10,000 from 1986 to 2001
Jon Sinclair - I mean, if someone had the gall to mention Darrell General...Sinclair was a road whore (meant in a good way) in early 80s all the way to mid 90s.
Hey JWH, Lagat couldn't win an Olympic medal while representing the USA. Brian Diemer won Bronze in one of the most competitive Olympic Steeplechases in history.
AT THESWOOSH wrote:
Hey JWH, Lagat couldn't win an Olympic medal while representing the USA. Brian Diemer won Bronze in one of the most competitive Olympic Steeplechases in history.
Lol he won 4 world championships while representing the USA and has 3 silvers and a bronze to boot.
Seeing as I am pretty late, I want to emphasize 2:
Matthew Centrowitz
Dave Wottle
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