First transgender athlete June Eastwood to compete in women’s DI XC this fall, has pbs of 1:55/3:50/14:38

Your missing

8. Acknowledge that there are also disadvantages associated with hormone therapy that negatively affect performance and that these disadvantages have led, on average, to a slowing in distance running times by approximately 10-15% according to the limited data we have. Advantages still persist from being born XY (not negating point 3 entirely), but for distance running (5k and up) there is no evidence that the advantages and disadvantages lead to a "net" advantage. Admit that the science is still inconclusive and that this data has limited scope to distance running only. But also admit that the intuitive advantages we all know about, may indeed actually be canceled out by disadvantages we are less familiar with.

The physiological advantages that come from being male are not eradicated by hormone treatment. These include superior muscle, bone, anatomical and cardiovascular features, and are advantages XX women do not have. That, itself, is not fair. Although female hormone treatment reduces performance, XX women would only be able to compete with an athlete on hormone treatment if the athlete is relatively mediocre by male standards; they would not be able to successfully compete if the athlete is of an elite male standard. Renee Richards, the trans tennis player is a case in point. Although she was competitive with women she transitioned well past her peak, in her 30's. She now says that if she had transitioned in her early 20's she was of such a level that no XX woman would have stood a chance against her. She opposes XY athletes competing in women's sport.

To try to run a calculus over the advantages or otherwise an XY athlete competing in women's sports might have, to find ways to include that athlete in the field but not so that they would destroy it (as many males could) is ultimately a contrived attempt to put one category of athlete into another in which they do not truly fit. It is a politically-motivated exercise.

I'm going to differ with you a bit on the assessment here.

Schuyler Bailar, though very highly accomplished for a ftm, does not support a profile that suggests elite athlete status as a male. "Third fastest" breaststroke on the Harvard men's swim team is definitely not elite m status.

Chris Mosier is a stronger case than Bailar. Not to take anything away from what Mosier has accomplished, but note that all the highest accomplishments are in duathlon, not triathlon. Duathlon is a highly niche sport. He would be considered good but not be considered an elite male in either running or cycling. Swimming, evidently, is at least somewhat out of the picture for Mosier. I'll say this as gently as I can--the standard of comparison for triathletes is the triathlon, not the duathlon. If you follow the links for the Wikipedia article on Mosier, you find out that things like "All-American" in the duathlon cash out in terms of "13th in the nation for the 35-39 age group." That's a solid accomplishment, and I don't want to suggest anything to the contrary, but it is not elite m. Note that nobody pays attention to the 35-39 age group for 10K or marathon--they're still too busy competing against 20-somethings. The duathlon tracks (and promotes) athletes by a whole different ranking system than running events or cycling. And that ranking system is very friendly to those who have the time and personal resources to continue competitive activities deep into a period of life where most of their peers have gone recreational or dropped competition altogether.

Should Mosier be allowed to compete? Absolutely. But not as a woman (nor would Mosier want that), given his therapy history.

I suspect (don't know, I don't have encyclopedic knowledge of these things) that Mosier is probably the strongest case for ftm athletic accomplishment.

I appreciate your input, and the opportunity to clarify, but I stand by the original comment.

The Chris Mosier case is pretty interesting.

I am wondering if she has to follow certain requirements, like MtF athletes? Or are women who think they are men free to compete in men's divisions, because the men's division is harder anyway?

Are FtM athletes allowed to take as much testosterone injections (doping) as they like? Is it possible for a FtM athlete to bridge the gender gap by taking huge amounts of doping? This wouldn't be very fair t(clean) male athletes.

This keeps being repeated, but do we have any actual cases of a MTF transgender runner that has testosterone levels within the normal female range and is still dominating? Even one single case? I'm asking sincerely.

As for Renee Richards, she didn't have sex reassignment surgery until the age of 41. She played in the US Open two years later and was eliminated in the first round. It's not clear what her testosterone levels were after sex reassignment, but undoubtedly she was taking testosterone otherwise her body would have totally shut down.

i hope she does well,but i cant see her winning at the top leval.She wont run anywhere near the pb's she ran as a male,and shes fine with that.Where it could get scary one day is if in the future,much faster athletes transition from male to female. Really high level college or high school students.It might never ever happen,but there's a small chance it could.Being transgender is rare,and i dont believe male to female athletes are out to dominate female track and field.

We don't have many examples because the issue of transgender competing in women's sport is new, which is why sports are trying to work out how they should respond. (There may have been isolated instances of intersex athletes competing in the past but these were not openly declared. The world was a different place.)

We could look at the example offered by Semenya as illustrative of some of the principles involved. As an XY she is only a middling athlete by male standards yet utterly dominates her sport. If she reduces her level of testosterone she is predicted to go from being a sub-1.55 athlete to one who will struggle to break 2 minutes. Based on that example, what would be the likely outcome if a more talented male athlete 'transitioned'? An athlete who might have been capable of 1.47-48 would possibly still be capable of around 1.53 after hormone treatment. Better than the current world record.

I take your other point about Rene Richards but in competing at the USO aged 41 she was a good 20 years past her physical peak. That is why she says it would have been unfair if she had been able to compete as a woman if she had transitioned at 20.

We don't have many examples of ftm transgenders dominating female running or we don't have any? There's a difference. And it's not new. You brought up the case of Renee Richards which was now about 45 years ago. Renee Richards is now 85 years old afterall.

Semenya is nowhere close to being an illustrative example because her testosterone levels have never been anywhere close to that of a regular woman. Even when she was taking the medication to suppress testosterone her levels will stay close to 4x that of the high-normal for a woman. 4x! So she goes from 1:54.25 with testosterone levels likely about 10x or more higher than an average woman to a 2:02.66 with levels about 4x higher. That was her slowest year and it came about 2.5 years after having to take medication, which is in line with someone who doesn't respond well to suppression.

Take any elite 800m female in the world and quadruple their testosterone levels and they will undoubtedly improve dramatically.

It's just a wag, but I think it's reasonable to expect Semenya to be in the 2:08+ range if her testosterone level was in the range of about 50-80ng/dl. Suddenly nobody cares about her anymore other than to show that actually reducing testosterone levels to female levels makes a massive difference. And at that point the extra mass Semenya has, being 5'10" 160+ lbs, is a disadvantage as a runner. She's heavier than Noah Lyles afterall despite being shorter than he is.

So, her PR is equal to the women's WR. Sounds like the women's WR will be getting destroyed.

sbeefyk2 wrote:

So, her PR is equal to the women's WR. Sounds like the women's WR will be getting destroyed.

Did you read any of the previous posts before you jumped in?

Well said, Paul. That's where I come down on this.

But there will be massive pushback, because this is seen by many on the other side as an important inflection point, one in which the freedom to be who you are, or feel yourself most profoundly to be, in gender/sexuality terms, trumps all other considerations.

I don't think that men like you and I, regardless of how calm, reasonable, and powerful our arguments might be, can make a dent in how the other side, and how the general public, thinks. I don't think that moral suasion from us carries any weight at all. The ONLY thing, in my view, that will make a difference is if the female athletes themselves mobilize and resist and, if necessary, engage in nonviolent direct action, such as sitting out a race, as another poster has suggested.

The other thing that could conceivably make a difference is if trans athletes themselves came to the table and said, "Look, we want and need to be who we are, but we feel uncomfortable, to be honest, using our unfair advantage to take trophies away from our female peers." I see the chances of that happening as miniscule.

You guys are assuming people like June are trying to game the system so they can win. It’s my understanding transgender people actually WANT to be taking the hormones to transition. That’s the whole point isn’t it, that they don’t feel comfort in a body that doesn’t align with their perceived gender. Why would June stop taking the hormones that are helping her transition?

It wouldn’t be hard for the NCAA to have rules requiring ftm transgender athletes must have testosterone levels equivalent to normal women for at least 12 months and then sustain that while competing.

We need help from all, including men.

Caster Semenya has been cheating for more than a decade, competing as XY with women.

How many female athletes and especially his competitors have been able to speak out against him? Only Lynsey Sharp dared to do so, very emotional right after a race where she had to run against 3 (!) men.

The result? She was harassed, bullied, threatened, called racist and transphobic... by the left.

So let me ask again.. Where does this male shower? In the women's locker room or men's ?

And what do the women of this forum think about having a transgender shower in the same locker room.

According to the comments under this article, most of the Montana community doesn't want Jonathan to compete with women.

https://www.facebook.com/ABCFOXMONTANA/posts/2267303349990141?__tn__=-R

Another interesting video I stumbled upon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIlq85dL0C4

It's about a HS athlete in Connecticut who dares to speak out against these trannies. Several other female athletes are interviewed, but they have to alter their voices because they are so afraid of the leftist bullying.

They also talk about a plan by Pelosi, creating a civil right for men to identify as women, which would totally eradicate women from sports.

Mike Rozzi wrote:

According to the comments under this article, most of the Montana community doesn't want Jonathan to compete with women.

https://www.facebook.com/ABCFOXMONTANA/posts/2267303349990141?__tn__=-R

Another interesting video I stumbled upon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIlq85dL0C4

It's about a HS athlete in Connecticut who dares to speak out against these trannies. Several other female athletes are interviewed, but they have to alter their voices because they are so afraid of the leftist bullying.

They also talk about a plan by Pelosi, creating a civil right for men to identify as women, which would totally eradicate women from sports.

And most of the fans that go to Utah Jazz games think it’s fine to call Russell Westbrook derogatory names. It takes time for people to be more compassionate to groups of people they don’t identify with.

As far as Sharp speaking out, she has every right to do so and I agree with her it’s not fair to allow intersex athletes to compete against women while resting supraphysiological levels of testosterone. The transgender girls in Connecticut weren’t taking any hormones to transition at all, which again makes the competition unfair.

People keep using examples of intersex athletes or transgender athletes competing with women despite not reducing their testosterone levels to that of average female levels. I’m 100% with you all in saying that is not fair.

Until we’ve seen the results of mtf transgender runners who have reduced their testosterone levels to being in line with normal women I don’t think it’s fair to claim the sky is falling in regards to female sport. If June goes out and crushes everyone while having female levels of testosterone then I’ll agree with you it’s not fair, but I don’t think that’s what’s going to happen.

recreational jogger53 wrote:

So let me ask again.. Where does this male shower? In the women's locker room or men's ?

And what do the women of this forum think about having a transgender shower in the same locker room.

i think your question is too broad. if someone "passes" like june does, that is to say, if you saw them on the street or in the locker room (assuming she covers up like a decent person) you would assume it's a woman, then it's a non-issue. not much is known about this case yet, but the actual stakeholders in the locker room debate, her teammates, all appear to support her per the instagram pics of them running together and smiling. going by history this isn't surprising considering cece telfer's teammates also supported her including going on twitter to defend her while i haven't seen a single teammate that didn't support her. so it seems like the women are just fine with it.

Crowd Sorcerer wrote:

It takes time for people to be more compassionate to groups of people they don’t identify with.

Until we’ve seen the results of mtf transgender runners who have reduced their testosterone levels to being in line with normal women I don’t think it’s fair to claim the sky is falling in regards to female sport. If June goes out and crushes everyone while having female levels of testosterone then I’ll agree with you it’s not fair, but I don’t think that’s what’s going to happen.

So glad to know that's it's unfair to protest the incursion of males into female sports until some clinicians figure out how grown males with intact, healthy testicles can reduce their T to female levels by pharmacological means.

Now that you've decreed that the only physiological difference between males and females that matters in sports is a male athlete's testosterone level at the time of competition, you can rest assured that girls and women will stop griping that it's unfair to have to compete against the likes of Jonathan/Juniper and Craig/Cece Telfer.

Because so far, competing against males who claim to be female - such as cyclists Rachel McKinnon and Kate Weatherly, weight-lifter Laurel Hubbard, fighter Fallon Fox, football player Chris Ginther, marathoner Aron Taylor, and HS runners Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood - has turned out really well for girls and women.

And of course girls and women will continue to swallow our discomfort about having to share locker rooms, showers and overnight accommodations with "female athletes" who happen to have penises and balls. Oops, I slipped and used transfauxbic (sic) lingo there. Mea culpa. Nowadays, the correct nomenclature for those body parts is, of course, "girl dicks" and "brovaries."

Now that you've chided us, we girls and women will also be sure to follow your advice "to be more compassionate" to the growing number of male athletes who now are self-identifying as females and claiming it's their "human right" to compete - and win - in female sports. Because it's girls and women's first and foremost duty to be "compassionate" always, especially to males who show they have zero compassion for us while claiming to be us.

Yup, when it comes to female sports, the sky is def not falling, as you can see from all the lovely "laydees" shown here:

Not really taking a stance either way, except to reiterate that we need to be respectful. However, I see all these posts about the Testosterone suppression drugs and getting T-levels down. What I’m not seeing is the discussion about how the massive doses of estrogen play into all of this.

I don’t know if June is on estrogen. I assume she is based on the physical changes.

As the T-levels drop to “acceptable levels” it is really the massive doses of estrogen that I feel like would have the more pronounced effect on the body. For some posters to even suggest that there will be no dip in performance seems so completely unlikely.

I would give $1000 out of my own pocket for any sub 15:00 guy on here to go on estrogen for one year and maintain their level of performance. Even without the testosterone suppression I would assume a significant drop. There’s no way you can pull it off.

I don’t know the right answer to all this. I have friends that are transgenders in the acting word. I see them as they identify themselves. Athletics is the only area where things seem to get a bit more murky.

Right now the rules allow her to participate. I feel it’s a far different scenario than Caster. She refuses to take the medication. That’s her right. But the IAAF also has the right to make their rules.

Above all. I chose to let things play out and we will have more data to base further rules or discussion.

Just my 2c or $1000 if one of you guys wants to make it happen.