The Ingebrigtsen's prove that the East African 'natural born runner' superiority is a myth. Here's why.

ex-runner wrote:

Coevett wrote:

There's a few differences between Armstrong and yourself.

Armstrong has never claimed to be a sub-elite runner (as far as I know).

Armstrong is generally sickened by the doping spectacle (at least that's the impression I get).

You have claimed that cheating is 'human nature' and universal. Although Armstrong believes doping is near universal today, he believes it was the opposite before the professional era.

You've claimed to be a sub-elite British 800m runner who has competed at the British championships and been a regular at BMC meetings. You've claimed that doping is rife everywhere and that practically everybody will cheat given the opportunity to do so because it is universal human nature. You've ridiculed me for believing that athletes such as Anthony Whiteman are clean, and you've boasted that there was no testing at the BMC meetings you competed at.

Despite your slanders against the likes of Whiteman, based on no other fact it seems that in your experience Whiteman could have cheated (like you) and so must have (because of human nature), you think I'm a racist for being suspicious of East African performances where anti-testing procedures are a shambles, where dozens of athletes have yet been caught, and where the two leading athletics nations - Kenya and Ethiopia - are on the four country strong 'watch list' of places where athletes are most likely to be doping.

Subway is a clear example of the attitude you would expect from a sub-elite or national class runner who feels he could have been closer to the top if he had doped like many of his competitors that he suspected/suspects.

You say you reached the British championships. Just by that fact you must have been close to getting an international vest and such. Yet despite believing that most of the guys ahead of you were doping and therefore cheating you out of finals (if you yourself were clean), vests, and medals, you seem quite chilled out by it, and in fact reserve your bitterness for those like myself and Subway who think doping is disgusting.

It doesn't add up does it? It's like Nick Willis maintaining that he was clean (when challenged) but accusing many of his rivals of being doped and being quite blase about it. Maybe only getting angry online when accusing somebody of racism for criticizing Kiprop or Ramzi.

Perhaps Nick Willis is putting on an act when expressing his frustration at doping in athletics (although I don't believe for a moment it is an act). But even that would show that if you want to present yourself as a clean athlete, you adopt a public anti-doping stance. You don't get onside with doping apologists.

Did I?

A lot of accusations there and not a lot of evidence.

Did you study logic, or the art of assumption?

Armstronglivs wrote:

Coevett wrote:

That WADA estimate says nothing about Norwegian distance runners.

Most of us here know that the majority of that 15-40% (of global athletes) will come from places like East Africa.

The Ingebrigtsens are running as fast as most doped up East Africans because they are more talented runners.

Just like Herb Elliott and Peter Snell were running equivalent times of the best Europeans and Africans of today, and yet blood doping hadn't even become a thing yet in their day.

It's inconsistent for you to claim that the culture between today and the 1960's is so wildly different that we can assume nobody cheated back then whereas everybody cheats today, while ignoring the possibility that doping rates today can vary immensely between different cultures (i.e. Norway and Kenya).

You've also admitted yourself that the likes of Nick Willis and the Ingebrigtsens wouldn't be doping to the extent that East Africans are, simply because they can't.

2% of 40% doping athletes caught is to some extent due to most of the dopers being in places with little or no testing.

The Jamaican whistleblower, Ann Shirley, reported that doping is endemic in all sports and across all countries. Norway will not be an exception. The critical culture is of sport, not nationality.

Armstronglivs wrote:

There are some rather naive arguments being advanced for why athletes like the Ingebrigstens couldn't be doping. To say that in some countries (like Norway) sports doping could have a greater stigma than in other countries, while possibly being true, may only affect the incidence of doping and not the fact that it will occur. Indeed, rigorous anti-doping in such countries, while it will inhibit the practice also implicitly recognises that some athletes will choose to dope, given the opportunity. No country is without crime, and doping is somewhat akin to white collar crime to the extent it reflects ethical choices - or lapses, more accurately. Is there any country that has no such crime? I don't think so. Similarly, there will be dopers anywhere you choose to look.

Nor is it a practice that requires wealth, as we see that doping has been especially prevalent in countries where wealth is only for the few.

It may seem a little hard to swallow but it doesn't really take much to dope; simply the desire to succeed. Any athlete will have that. Even, I dare say, the Ingebrigstens.

Natural Talents wrote:

One proud Norwegian father with a different mentality then other Non-Africans of the last several decades and determines that he will make his sons the best. “If the African teenagers can do it why can’t my Norwegian ones”.

Forgive my English as I present my argument, but I am a native Spanish speaker.

• Filip and Henry already showed that one European family with elite genetics could compete clean with African rivals who are at least to a large part doped up. Now with the years of experience of guiding the older brothers and learning through trial and error, the father Gjert as well as the mentorship of the brothers has produced the sensation that is Jakob

•For not one but THREE BROTHERS to match the best of Africa would indicate that elite level Europeans in the right environment of training and dedication ought to be as fast as the best Africans who we now know - for example Kiprop, Kiptum etc - have been doping.

•An exceptional talent like Jakob in the right environment has already achieved more than any legitimate 18 year old African, and he has done it clean in a country with rigorous testing standards - the opposite of East Africa. If his progression continues, as it has steadily for the last five years, he will surely smash the EPO peak era records of El G and Bekele. He could well achieve this before the age of 21 CLEAN.

•Although Jakob is clearly a once in a generation talent, and perhaps the greatest runner in history, it's unlikely that he can be THAT so much of a genetic outlier to other Europeans. If 18 year old Jakob can demonstrably run sub 3:30 and sub 13:00 clean then these times are surely achievable for other elite Non-African runners.

•And in fact Jakob's performances only seem 'unearthly' rather than simply genius, because of the decline of athletics and in particular middle and long distance running over the last few decades. Coe, Cram, Ovett, Ryun, Snell, Elliott etc. all would be running 3:26 or faster today CLEAN. In fact, all ran equivalent times or displayed similar talent before EPO had even been invented, and in the case of Elliott and Snell before blood doping was even a thing.

• However, we do not in all honesty know that Africans have ever ran these kind of times without doping. Further, the decline in European times was in large part due to the African doping fueled domination, itself justified and masked by the 'natural superiority' fabrication.

• We may say that Keino first showed the 'natural talent' of Africans and he is widely credited with initiating the 'African invasion' but unfortunately there are concerns that have come to light with the traditional narrative.

•One dodgy Dutch sports scientist decided to go to Kenya and 'prove' that they were genetically superior runners to the rest of the world. Up to that point, East Africans had shown nothing, and were regularly employed as pacemakers for European races simply because whilst durable and fit in numbers, they appeared unable to produce a truly competitive runner. Within a decade, the sports scientist had fulfilled his own lucrative prophesy and produced stars such as Keino.

•In early 68, Keino and other top Kenyan stars, including Rudisha's father, forced the Dutchman out, claiming that he had colonial attitudes and was garnering all the credit. Suddenly, Keino and the other star's form deserted them. Finally, Keino went back to the Dutchman grovelling for an apology, and he was restored as head coach of the Kenyan Olympic team just in time.

•Although the form of the top Kenyans quickly returned, Keino himself was suffering in Mexico. Collapsing in the 10000m, and apparently near to death, he was confined to bed in hospital seriously ill. Yet to everbody's surprise, he decided to enter the 1500m and take on his great rival Ryun, who had dominated him in previous races. According to legend, Keino escaped from his hospital ward and ran to the stadium at the last moment, only managing to line up for the final with seconds to spare. Ryun was shocked and concerned at the sight of his great foe risen from his death bed, and chose to ignore Kenio when he raced to the front, pursuing an apparently insane pace. Ryun genuinely believed that Kenio would collapse if he gave chase.

•Further mystery surrounds the Kenyan 1968 team and the reputation of Kenio. According to Charlie Francis, the coach of Ben Johnson, the IAAF conducted drug tests for the first time for most of the competing athletes (doping rules had however not yet been established) and found that both the Jamaican and the Kenyan teams were ALL doped to the gills with steroids. Kenio himself recently was charged with stealing millions of dollars in his position as head of the Kenyan Rio Olympic team that was intended for the support of young athletes.

•East Africa begins dominating distance running in the 80's, beginning with cross country quickly translated to success on the track. An example of this supposed 'natural African invasion' is John Ngugi, xcountry star and then Champion in Seoul. Unfortunately for the 'natural born runner' hypothesis, Ngugi, like several of the 80's xcountry stars, was suspended for doping violations.

•Whilst East Africans had success in championships, it was in the 90's that they started to apparently demonstrate a capacity to take running into another level with extraordinary times and world records. However, this coincided almost exactly with the introduction of EPO, and the now confirmed part that drug plays in the culture of African running, with numerous doping busts in Morocco and Kenya, and the likes of Ethiopia exempt surely only because of the complete absence of testing.

•Another reason to be doubtful of the 'East African' running genes myth is the success of North Africans, in particular Moroccans in the 90s - above all El G. Not only would it be an unbelievable coincidence that the two most talented genetic groups both happen to reside in the same continent (and a continent known to be rife with doping) but it is known that North Africans, particularly Moroccans, are much more closely related genetically to Europeans than they are to East Africans.