Down goes Jemima Sumgong wrote:
bye bye
The world has been witnessing a lot of fraud ever since Dr. Rosa decided to take his EPO practice to Kenya. Since then scores of athletes have avoided off testing and/or been let use drugs use to politics. The surprise is that this one made it through the checkpoints in place that usually save Kenyans, Ethiopians, Cubans, Dominicans etc. when it comes to positive test results. Maybe she'll be saved a la Bernie Lagat.
you are correct, my bad. I was doing this off of memory and was wrong.
The difference EPO makes is huge. Articles that have been written show that a 90-120 second improvement can be made over 10000m. Again it varies per individual, however with that said there can be a ~480 second improvement made over the Marathon distance.
That would account for why we see all of these 2:05 range marathons all over the world.....
These guys might be solid 2:11-2:12 guys clean, but on the EPO they are running these ridiculous times.
Found the marathon progressions in the LRC analysis article very interesting. Is there a source to see Jeptoo's progressions as well. How about some of the Male progressions...exactly when did they go from sold 2:10-2:11 to 2:05? Maybe another job for Marathon Investigations.
Why So Late To The Game wrote: I find it amazing that there are still people over age 30 who are still "saddened" and "disappointed" with the latest drug bust.
I hope your amazement is actually that people over 30 (or any age, for that matter) are "surprised" whenever the latest PED bust occurs.
I am 52, and this sort of news rarely if ever surprises me. However, I continue to be "saddened and disappointed" that today's athletes lack the morality, sense of fair play, self-respect, and respect for their sports that is required to compete clean.
I am "saddened and disappointed" to know that my own children - one who is a distance runner and one who is a cyclist - will likely never realize success beyond high school unless they stoop to PED use in order to "maintain a level playing field." I hope they are never compelled to sink to that level, no matter the temptation.
I am "saddened and disappointed" that no one can achieve any level of success these days without immediately being suspected of cheating. This message board alone is proof that no great effort or achievement is taken at face value anymore. And usually with good reason.
This particular state of T&F is but a microcosm of what we know about people in general: Mankind sucks!
I know you! wrote:
Tell that to the families of the seven cyclists who died 2002-2004.
Bobby1 wrote:EPO is no more dangerous than orange juice. Level the playing field and allow EPO.
There is no evidence it was EPO related. Worrying about the safety of athletes is a red herring.
Why So Late To The Game wrote:
It amazes me that there at still people without a personal connection to Lagat, that are still holding onto the Lagat fantasy today. You have to believe that at age 42, you can be better much, much better (e.g. 13:00 vs 13:37) than were at age 23 and competing in the NCAA and despite years of training and being in your prime years of mid 20s, you are losing to 20 and 21 year old Americans like Jon Riley. People like Mr. Wigand either don't understand human physiology or are living in some sort of parallel universe.
Jeff Wigand wrote:No need to lie on what happened with Lagat. All well documented.
Lagat is one of the best if not the best of all time and has had a steady albeit slow decline. That he is still somewhat fast as a 42 year old isn't condemnation. Your refusal to acknowledge the false positive despite all of the information available just shows your inability to approach with reason.
Anyway, F Jemima.
Why So Late To The Game wrote:
You have to believe that at age 42
13:06 and 41, but who's counting
Why So Late To The Game wrote:
you can be better much, much better (e.g. 13:00 vs 13:37) than were at age 23 and competing in the NCAA and despite years of training and being in your prime years of mid 20s
Not sure why anyone would think outdoor opener blowouts at the Mt. SAC Relays are markers of absolute ability for someone pointed squarely at the 1500m.
Why So Late To The Game wrote:
People like Mr. Wigand either don't understand human physiology
Lagat's annual 1500m season best times
Age 22: 3:41.19
Age 23: 3:34.48
Age 24: 3:30.56
Age 25: 3:28.51
Age 26: 3:26.34
Age 27: 3:27.91
Age 28: 3:30.55
Age 29: 3:27.40
Age 30: 3:29.30
Age 31: 3:29.68
Age 32: 3:33.85
Age 33: 3:32.75
Age 34: 3:32.56
Age 35: 3:32.51
Age 36: 3:33.11
Age 37: 3:34.63
Age 38: 3:36.36
Age 40: 3:41.87
He got slower with age, as expected. It's remarkable that he gradually slowed as much as he did, maybe taking so much time off throughout the year was key to that. But he wasn't setting lifetime bests at 40 like Regina Jacobs.
james naismith li wrote:
[
Lagat is one of the best if not the best of all time and has had a steady albeit slow decline. That he is still somewhat fast as a 42 year old isn't condemnation. Your refusal to acknowledge the false positive despite all of the information available just shows your inability to approach with reason.
.[/quote]
Ok James, what was your (or anyone else in the world except Lagat) 5K best at age 23 and what was your 5K best at age 42?
Yeah, I thought so.....
nice to read that the funding from the marathon majors for OOC tests is what got her. I know they have a conflict of interest so this is an encouraging result.
52 wrote:
Why So Late To The Game wrote: I find it amazing that there are still people over age 30 who are still "saddened" and "disappointed" with the latest drug bust.I hope your amazement is actually that people over 30 (or any age, for that matter) are "surprised" whenever the latest PED bust occurs.
I am 52, and this sort of news rarely if ever surprises me. However, I continue to be "saddened and disappointed" that today's athletes lack the morality, sense of fair play, self-respect, and respect for their sports that is required to compete clean.
I am "saddened and disappointed" to know that my own children - one who is a distance runner and one who is a cyclist - will likely never realize success beyond high school unless they stoop to PED use in order to "maintain a level playing field." I hope they are never compelled to sink to that level, no matter the temptation.
I am "saddened and disappointed" that no one can achieve any level of success these days without immediately being suspected of cheating. This message board alone is proof that no great effort or achievement is taken at face value anymore. And usually with good reason.
This particular state of T&F is but a microcosm of what we know about people in general: Mankind sucks!
Well...mankind is mankind and always has been. It's the availability of cheating methods that is problematic and I don't see a reversal.
If you buy-in to the romance and purity of sport then these are hard times. There will never, ever, be a return to any sort of purity-slash-level playing field due to the human tendencies that you referenced. We know that most successful endurance athletes cheat. We simply know that now because those that get caught/busted clearly represent just a small percentage of those who cheat. Is there any argument to the contrary?
Has Gladwell covered the "tip of the iceburg" phenomenon as applied to ethics violations yet? If not, there is fertile ground there for him.
Athletes cheat. Officials cheat. Managers cheat. Owners cheat. Etc...
One interesting question is: Does the cheating entirely ruin the enjoyment of the sport? The answer here is getting close to: "Yes"
For many fans of team sports the answer is "clearly no." They like seeing the game played out and there are factors related to strategy, coordination, etc... that distract from the otherworldly athleticism.
Anyone familiar with Russell Westbrook in the NBA? He's the basketball equivalent of a Dibaba sister, yet no one seems to care how he's doing it.
Nice article.
Room on the big Kenyan doping bus for another one?
Anyone find it interesting that Kenyans went nuts at Chelanga for making a sarcastic comment about Africa being tough to race in, but they don't seem to care when "one of their own" makes a disgrace of their country by cheating?
Kenyan-runner-twitter laid into Sammy for days, but I don't see a peep from that same group about Sumgong ruining their reputation here. It's odd what they choose to take seriously and choose to ignore.
Bobby1 wrote:
EPO is no more dangerous than orange juice. Level the playing field and allow EPO.
Oh, does orange juice give you a 30 second pr in the 10k w/o an ounce of additional training? This is the difference.
There's just something wrong with gaining a massive pr w/o the work. You can argue that food, water, iron supplements are all training aids, but you're not going to improve like you would using a ped.
wejo wrote:
I'm pretty pissed as well.
I spent a full day with Sumgong and her trainig mates two weeks ago. Jemima showed me around her house.
Just today I started to think about what I was going to write. She and her training mates gave a goodstory for their improvement. After Claudio left as her coach in aftermath of Jeptoo bust, her husband Noah started coaching her and they also have a ton of male pacers. She said her husband understood her and her training partners better being Kenyan and on the ground. It was plausible.
Now I'll never forget how Sumgong acted all stupid when Jeptoo tested positive and it was announced at NYC. She pretended she didn't understand my questions. Next time I saw her I was surprised how good her English was. But at Rio the journalists asked her anti-doping questions and she directly and fervently answered them saying she was clean.
Now my article will be "My day at Jemima Sumgong's Doping Camp* "
*awaiting B Test
Your still pretty young to world class competition and the rules that are played with it. Attending a few championships and talking with few athletes and coaches is a start.
Dr.Rosa is master at what he does and how he does it. Its a game he has played for many years. He believes what he is doing with doping is ok and not harmful to the athletes and allows them to compete on world stage. He will not say this to your face.
He is a good coach and understands all to well the physiology of the sport and what it takes to elevate an athlete to the next level.
The athletes enter his realm blind with trust. This is not a new for him as this all started many years ago with his Italian athletes.
How do we resolve this? Its not the doctors making drugs available, its the agents who act as the middle men. Athletes give back a percentage of winnings to agents. The higher the finish the bigger the pay day, shoe contracts etc etc.
If we put into place that when an athlete is caught and suspended the same penalty is given to the agent. Two violations and the agent is banned from the sport. Trust me if we put teeth into this, agents would far better manage their athletes and we would see drop in drug use if we took away their means to make a living.
The Dingo^3 wrote:
Anyone find it interesting that Kenyans went nuts at Chelanga for making a sarcastic comment about Africa being tough to race in, but they don't seem to care when "one of their own" makes a disgrace of their country by cheating?
Kenyan-runner-twitter laid into Sammy for days, but I don't see a peep from that same group about Sumgong ruining their reputation here. It's odd what they choose to take seriously and choose to ignore.
That's not how they see it though.
When a Kenyan tests positive, other Kenyans (and the hordes of apologists) go into panic mode and try to find a way to blame 'The West' for the positive test. Either saying it was a corrupt test and that the poor innocent athlete was misled by nasty Western interlopers.
While there's no sense of responsibility at any level in Kenya, nothing is going to change.
Sumgong goes home medicated!!!
Why So Late To The Game wrote:
[quote]james naismith li wrote:
Ok James, what was your (or anyone else in the world except Lagat) 5K best at age 23 and what was your 5K best at age 42?
Jeff just posted his progression/regression above. Your argument boils down to him just being too fast and not slowing down quickly enough. Couple that with your ignorance on the mishandling of his tests and I don't know why I should believe your opinion.
james naismith li wrote:
Why So Late To The Game wrote:[quote]james naismith li wrote:
Ok James, what was your (or anyone else in the world except Lagat) 5K best at age 23 and what was your 5K best at age 42?
Jeff just posted his progression/regression above. Your argument boils down to him just being too fast and not slowing down quickly enough. Couple that with your ignorance on the mishandling of his tests and I don't know why I should believe your opinion.
Of course the 'mishandling' of his tests.
I think given what we know about the IAAF and WADA we can be pretty confident that this was a cover up.
Doper.