Salazar, Farah, talk about use of L-carnitine, a legal supplement with 11% performance gains

See #1

I do get the luxury of looking up IP addresses. I've only looked up 2 in this thread. They weren't from Portland, but I did find the one guy making the most arguments I've been responding to being from the same ip address using a bunch of different names.

Clearly a lot of track people (the people in this thread and people who have contacted me directly) think this story is of interest.

I thought the Times with the emphasis on a legal supplement being ordered had the wrong emphasis as most people agree that is a nonstory. As I wrote, "If a perfectly legal supplement could boost performance 11%, then a coach would not be doing his duty if he did not make his athletes aware of it."

The Dr. Brown connection and Steve Magness 'guinea pig' injectinos are much more interesting to me, but those things are a bit more difficult for the non track fan to follow.

Plus people have been talking about a super supplement out of Britain for quite some time now. Interesting to finally see a story finally come out.

Not sure I see your conflict -- L-Carnitine is an amino acid.

wejo wrote:

Do you really think a coach who experimented with prednisone on himself, took Prozac to compete better, experiments with injecting his assistant coach with l-carnitine, and orders thousands of dollars of a supplement right when it comes out really believes all you need is iron, vitamin D, and an amino acid? Or do you think he is looking for the next great thing constantly. I've told Alberto on a few occasions he can't have it both ways. Just say "We have no qualms about it. We do everything within the legal limits to be the best and that includes taking supplements others may not have."

Given the long history of this specific substance, I have to side with all those who think this is pretty much a "non-story". First, for a national Nike project, is $5000 a lot? And second -- it's a legal substance. And not a new one. Is it any different than if Alberto bought $5000 worth of bananas, or protein powder, or isotonic powder?

If anything, it hurts the sport, to pretend that legal substances should be viewed in the same light as banned substances, or derivatives of them, like "The Clear" or "CERA".

The only thing interesting from this is, at this point:

1) Should WADA, the IAAF, or other federation, investigate the use of L-Carnitine? Is the observation of an 11% performance gain (in cycling work output for a small group of VO2max 51 cyclists) repeatable?

Also, the third person telling of the Steve Magness experiment in a passive voice, makes me wonder if they really observed a 9% improvement in a matter of days, and 9% of what?

But so far, nothing has come out that requires any explanation from Alberto, or Galen or Mo, unless the method itself of injecting (an assistant coach) with a legal substance broke a rule.

L-Carnitine is not listed by WADA as a legal substance. It isn't listed at all, which means it should be investigated to determine if it should be listed.

wejo wrote:

what it is wrote:

Don't expect an intelligent reply from brojos. They are as shameless as they are stupid.

See #1

http://www.johntreed.com/debate.html

wejo, I did read that article before I posted. I agree that injection of supplements is not acceptable. But stuff like this:

Extra note: Last year, former World XC Champ Craig Virgin called for more transparency on the supplements athletes take. He asked what Galen Rupp could be “taking (legal or illegal supplements) that could help his body metabolize the lactic acid so quickly.”

is just plain stupid. Firstly it's not 'lactic acid' it's lactate, and secondly metabolizing lactate more quickly is just a nonsense concept that some people blather on about as if they actually had some knowledge of lactate metabolism. Neither you nor rojo have any real interest in biochmemistry, so to pretend you do is rather disingenuous. The only time you show an interest is when the subject of doping comes up and your journalistic instincts see a story to hype.

What does Magness have to say about all of this. Has he told you directly? Is he under contract not to go public with what he knows or has experienced? Did he agree to be injected with L-Carnitine? If so why?

what it is wrote:If so why?

Don't panic.

Here is a new job for you. NOP being criticized on Wikipedia.

Those criticisms show the usual naïve belief in hypoxia as a blood booster.

You need to go straighten out those wiki peeps.

Fan of everyone wrote:

...swayed by another anonymous poster on your message board.

Kettle meet pot.

"Firstly it's not 'lactic acid' it's lactate, and secondly metabolizing lactate more quickly is just a nonsense concept..."

So what, this is you just trying to show how clever you are after rubbishing the brojos but really just shows how stupid you are.

The point of the Virgin quote was about the need for "more transparency", something only an idiot would fail to understand.

Look people. White Americans and Africans trained in the US are simply gonna be able to beat all the African dopers. Just accept it.

The NOP defensive forces have not "fixed" Wikipedia yet!

- (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike_Oregon_Project#Criticisms).

The link above dares to mention Salazar and Rupp in the Criticisms section.

Grrr... Blasphemy! Grrrrrr.r.r..r.....

what it is wrote:

What does Magness have to say about all of this. Has he told you directly? Is he under contract not to go public with what he knows or has experienced? Did he agree to be injected with L-Carnitine? If so why?

you could contact him and ask as you seem so concerned and then you could come back here with something worthwhile and let us all know.

Talking pseudoscience will not lead to more transparency. Do I really have to explain that?

ask him wrote:

what it is wrote:

What does Magness have to say about all of this. Has he told you directly? Is he under contract not to go public with what he knows or has experienced? Did he agree to be injected with L-Carnitine? If so why?

you could contact him and ask as you seem so concerned and then you could come back here with something worthwhile and let us all know.

I'm not the one looking for a smoking gun. I am more concerned with something much more important. Something rojo and wejo should be doing; trying to build confidence in young ambitious runners to have more self belief.

They don't need drugs to be the best in the World, the human body (in case you didn't know) produces a vast range of performance enhancing chemicals naturally.

Journalists are a big part of the drug problem they pretend to be so intent on stamping out.

what it is wrote: Talking pseudoscience will not lead to more transparency. Do I really have to explain that?

You're a complete idiot. There is no pseudoscience. Only your low-quality trolling, 0/10. Or, if you are serious then your fanboy blindness is beyond compare.

It is pseudoscience to talk about lactate metabolism when you have no idea what lactate is or what it does.

You are the one who is trolling not me. This ridiculous obsession with drugs is not helping the sport. You can't help empower ambitious young runners with such a hopeless mentality.

what it is = A Duck

what it is wrote:

They don't need drugs to be the best in the World,

Yes they do.