Which was more impressive Killians Hardrock CR or Emma Coburn's AR

This is getting really stupid. My point is this: Kilian is a phenomenal athlete, vastly better than everyone else at what he does. He's an incredible talent. Emma Coburn's result is more impressive because it's at a distance that more people race, and also because Kilian wasn't even trying hard when he ran what he ran. People that are insulting Kilian are clueless. I can run a marathon in 2:42, but I almost certainly couldn't keep up with Kilian for even the first climb of his 100 mile outing. He's just that good. We'll never know what he can run for track races because he doesn't do them. It would be interesting to see what he could do, but it's more exciting to see him trying crazy stuff in the mountains. He's not going to run 2:03 in the marathon, so he's just not as relevant there. People insulting what he does need to try it. It's a lot harder than you think, even if his races are far less competitive.

Here are some quotes to give you more of an idea of what Jornet is doing.

http://adventureblog.nationalgeographic.com/2014/02/13/kilian-jornet-named-2014-peoples-choice-adventurer-of-the-year/

Jornet:

A: How would you compare what you do to what Ueli Steck does?

KJ: We do diferent activities in the same landscapes. He does fast dificult climbing, he run-climbs in the faces. I do endurance moving in mountains, up and down not try to go in a dificult way but in a way that makes me possible to move fast. Ueli is a big, big inspiration!

A: Do you think there will ever be a name for your hybrid sport of fast and light sky running with technical climbing?

KJ: We call it “alpine running,” but I don’t know if it will ever have a name.

http://sarahstirling.com/fast-lane-kilian-v-ueli/

Steck:

Ueli trained harder than ever to crush the Eiger North Face speed record. In 2004 he climbed it in ten hours, and it took three years to whittle that down to the new record of 3hr47. Afterwards, curiosity led him to the Swiss Federal Institute of Sports to find out how fit he was. They told him: not very! Compared to Olympic athletes, who train very scientifically, even top alpine climbers were in the dark ages.

After a year working with a team of Swiss Olympic training experts, Ueli returned to the Eiger, stripped nearly an hour from his own record and had found his niche. “Mountaineering is still not very developed from an athletic prospective,” Ueli tells me. “This is what I am interested in.” His training was, and remains, complex. Periods he works on strength or base endurance. Mental training sessions. 10-12 training sessions a week, up to 1,000 hours a year.

(I make a personal note: mountain runners had better hope Kilian doesn’t decide to train like an Olympic athlete.)

Steck then gave up soloing hard rock routes. If he continued, he calculated, he’d eventually kill himself. Instead, he decided to redefine what was possible at speed on what he calls “average technical terrain.” From 2008-9 Steck also broke solo speed records on the Grandes Jorasses (2hr20) and Matterhorn (1hr56), completing a neat trilogy of notorious Alpine North faces. Next, he raised his sights to redefining what’s possible in the Himalaya.

While Ueli first pushed his technical climbing limit to 8a solos, then progressed to setting speed records on less technical mountaineering terrain, Kilian went the other way. First he pushed his speed limit winning trail races, then upped his game to setting speed records on more technical mountaineering terrain.

It was probably inevitable these two sponsored heroes, both looking for bigger speed challenges in mountaineering terrain, would both end up on Everest. Of course, both want to do something different and avoid the fixed ropes of Everest’s Normal Route, where speed records are traditionally set. And both think using oxygen is cheating.

However, they aren’t going to race up the same route in a gameshow-style challenge. Kilian plans to set a speed record via one of Everest’s easy-angled snow couloirs – probably the Norton or Hornbein Couloir depending on conditions; Ueli’s plan is an ambitious, technical new route to the summit. Neither idea has been tried before.

I’m intrigued to know what Ueli thinks of Kilian’s project. “Cool idea!” he says, “This is right, the Normal Route is just pulling on ropes, but technical wise, the colouirs are very easy – snow slopes, nothing more. I think it is very cool to be able to climb mountains so fast and so easily like Kilian.” However, he wants to make the distinction between his game and Kilian’s clear: “we still have to make the difference – technical routes is the challenge these days, not long easy climbs.”

Personally, I think they are both pushing different aspects of moving fast and light in the mountains to new levels. There are similarities between training for mountain ultras and to race up north faces but, at the very top end, running and climbing essentially work against each other; Ueli has a top-heavy body, while Kilian is a pair of legs and lungs.

Kilian climbs average grades – like 6c sport, 6a solos, some 90o ice and M6 terrain – explaining: “I really don’t train too much in rock climbing so is difficult to improve the level.” On the other hand, while Ueli runs a lot for fitness (eighth in the recent 51km Eiger Ultra Trail suggests he’s quite fast), he’s unlikely to catch Kilian up on easier-angled terrain.

Who’s to say how much further Kilian will blur the boundary between climbing and running in the future, though. He’s only 25, tells me Ueli is a huge inspiration for him and says he thinks Ueli’s Everest project “is the way to approach big summits in the future.” But there’s also a chance Kilian will quietly slip into the shadows like a marmot. He loves racing but fame is, for him, an unfortunate by-product of winning.

And what about Ueli? I bite the bullet and ask: will he go back to Everest and climb the route he planned? Steck thinks for a moment, before replying: “You have to be honest – you cannot always climb harder and higher. I feel already I am not that driven any more compared to ten years ago. I can really enjoy just being out there. I really love to be in the mountains with my wife. We have a great time together.”

Interesting article!

Cultural wars wrote:

XC skiers are indeed better athletes than runners but it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with VO2 Max.

No, they are not. I honestly believe runners are the best endurance athletes. It's 100times more difficult to become a world class track runner than to become a world class XC skier. I'm from a small country with some mountains where almost nobody lives. Those who live there usually do XC-skiing and then become world-class XC skiers collecting medals at Olympics and WCs. This just tells me that in order to become a world class XC skier you need to be raised in mountains and do XC skiing since childhood. Even an extremely small pool of skiers produces top-level competitors.

Something similar is likely true with ultra-trail mountain races. If just very few kids raised in mountains started to do ultra-running instead of skiing there would be hundreds of Kilians.

This is what sealed the deal for me.Jornet was noticeably running easy most part of the race often checking out the scenery and even taking photos on his phone and having a very small shot of tequila at Viginus Pass near mile 31.Now if that's not impressive what is.

Now you are using popularity as a measure of how impressive someone is? That's really grasping at straws.

I understand he's the best at what he does, but that what he does is a combination of disciplines instead of a pure discipline. Similarly, the best runner in the world, the best swimmer in the world, the best cyclist in the world, are all more impressive than the best triathlete in the world, who has to combine disciplines.

Most of the guys on this site are city trash and will never understand the mountain running culture. It is what it is. Where I am from no one gives a shit about how fast you can run down a city street. We only care about how fast you can run to the top of a mountain.

Kilian is an incredible athlete. It amazes me that the morons on this site can find fault with this kid. He does what he was born to do and does it better than anyone else.

Don't forget to bash those city trash Kenyans who care about running fast on city streets.

deffenbaugh wrote:

Don't forget to bash those city trash Kenyans who care about running fast on city streets.

They care about making money. If the $$$ were in trail running, they'd do that instead.

moron wrote:

Anyone who says Hardrock needs mental help.

Really! Isn't Coburn like the 11th fastest ever?

Well whatever their motivation, someone needs to tell them that Not from NYC and his buddies aren't impressed.

J.R. wrote:

Captain Oblivious wrote:

Translation: Usually someone in the medical field administers the test so it must be wrong and possibly even life threatening.

That should give you a clue. :)

If you want a good test, have a race.

And you will find out that you can't win without a high number.

If Killian is the best at what he does how come when he shows up to arguably the most competitive and variable mountain race and gets blown away? He has not won Sierre Zinal since elites started coming to the race.

His best time is WAAAAY back from the greats. In fact, last year he was 4th there and about 2 mins from the leaders. He was never actually competing with these guys, they were ahead to the peak and through the technical descent as well. Killian is not the best, he just chooses races where he can be the best and avoids races where true talent takes over i.e. SZ.

He has won when there are only 2-3 other elites. That does not make you the greatest. The greats show up to compete with large numbers of the best. Killian would get my vote if he could get top 20 at World Mountain Running Championships. Jono Wyatt in my opinion is one of the best and also Marco De Gasperi. They show up to big events and win/won. Wyatt beat Killian at Sierre Zinal last year and he is a master! Max King and Joe Gray are on their way to being in conversation with these greats being that they have both now beaten them over the past years.

Its ok to be a fanboy but please do your research and be honest first. It hurts Running in general when people post falacies

LFK wrote:

This is an incredibly stupid "debate". Comparisons across disciplines are impossible. In trying, we're diminishing both athletes. Of course, diminishing Kilian seems to be the goal of many here. He's the best in the world at what he does. "What he does" may well occupy a very small niche within the endurance world, but that's clearly fine with him. Why it's not fine with anyone else, I have no idea.

True. A sport for old guys and wash outs.

Emma's. Ultra records are still too soft. We can rethink when there is greater competitive depth. Kilian is a fabulous runner.

Kilian keep in mind that Kilian was and still is focusing on his project. Pretty much doing the Matterhorn route all summer with races here and there. If Kilian was really ducking the competition he wouldn't have shown up at all since he had already won it twice. But he went there because he enjoys it. And if he was really ducking the competition he would dnf more often like some people but he still shows up and he still finishes the races even if he's losing.

notfanboy wrote:

Kilian keep in mind that Kilian was and still is focusing on his project. Pretty much doing the Matterhorn route all summer with races here and there. If Kilian was really ducking the competition he wouldn't have shown up at all since he had already won it twice. But he went there because he enjoys it. And if he was really ducking the competition he would dnf more often like some people but he still shows up and he still finishes the races even if he's losing.

More likely what happened is kilian keeps hearing from his posse and little fanboys that he is superman. So his ego gets involved and he makes the poor judgement to enter a race with real competition. He gets thumped because he just ain't that good. He won't make that mistake again.

"Kilian, your ego is writing checks that can't be cashed."

Collin wrote:

Cultural wars wrote:

You are blowing monkeys out of your butt on that one. Let's see evidence of your 4:10, and let Jornet try one as well.

Are you not capable of reading?

Reading of longish paragraphs on a cell phone does result in some challenges, so I misread that you said you can't run a 4:10. That said if Jornet is the greatest ever then how come a 40 something Carpenter ran faster at Pikes Peak and several have done better at Western States 100.

Hard Rock is quite new. Records fall easily in newer events.

You need to get a copy of ultra trail running magazine, its expensive, but it gives race results for races throughout the country. Look at the results and tell me that there aren't that many people doing. My bet is more men ran ultras last year than women ran steeple.

joedirt wrote:

No record in ultra running is impressive simply for the fact that there are not a lot of people doing it. It is self destructive and a lifestyle for OCD types that never had the fast twitch muscles to be good at any reasonable distance. They just kept training for longer distances so that there would be fewer competitors so that there might be a chance that they might be considered good at something. There is really no way to be good at ultra running and maintain a healthy balance in ones life.