Gebre breaks 25km WR, 1:11!

and I'm also referring to road races too.

and just because they are running at 30 doesn't mean they started when they are 20. Tergat got a really late start. you have to compare year to year bub.

I'm not saying no Kenyans quit the sport after two years. Some do. But plenty don't. I know that there are many good Kenyan road runners out there who don't even show up on the track lists - that only strengthens my arguement, which is, the excellence of the Kenyan runners is well supported by a depth and width of talent not remotely approached in Ethiopia, where there are a handful of world beaters followed up by a very thin and unimpressive athletic body of performance.

why can't you guys accept that the ethiopians are simply the best when it comes to 5 and 10k. Why do u have to keep on saying EPO, bla bla. Given the best training and 10 years, would ethiopia produce a basketball team that can win or even lose with a resonable margin to the us baseketball team? hell no!! is that because the us basketball team is on drugs???

I am not discussing EPO or bla bla. The discussion revolves around the peculiar constellation of performance found amongst Ethiopian distance runners - a small number of world beaters - that is "the best when it comes to 5 and and 10k", as you say - and the very thin ranks of the elite and/or near elite that are behind them. That is contrasted with the great depth of outstanding runners found in a range of events in neighboring Kenya, and even in the United States we find a significantly greater depth of talent when looking at the 800 on up - although not approaching the handful of Ethiopians that sit at or near the top of the world lists.

You said, "and just because they are running at 30 doesn't mean they started when they are 20. Tergat got a really late start. you have to compare year to year bub."

I do know that in 1992 Tergat ran a 1/2 marathon in 61:03 minutes - 11 years later he run 2.04:55, and this year, of course, he won the NYC marathon in 2.09:30. That's a 13 year run at a pretty damn high level.

perspective wrote:

OK. So your explanation is that most Ethiopians start to run, finding out fairly quickly whether or not they are at the top of the world and if they aren't, the majority will quit.

Yes, those that actually try. Many don't get the chance to try.

perspective wrote:

But aren't you the same guy who a couple of posts ago assured me that there were at least 35 truly amazing world class runners in 2003? Yet now, when you find out there weren't, you cook up a whole new explanation as to the dynamics of Ethiopian running.

No, now you are spinning. I said, in a given year, maybe 2003, there would likely be that many based on my list of 50 runners making all-time lists during an approximate 7--9 year range. So yes, I bet there would be, including all distance events, roads and cross, around 30-35 truly great Ethiopian runners competing around the world. You said a dozen, and that was just plain wrong. See, you are getting confused about your own arguments. Since you forget, I will refresh your memory. Your argument for saying that there is a "disturbing" trend in Ethiopian running were (and you were just being disingenuous now pretending that you never suggested that EPO might be the reason for these "disturbing facts")

1) They have several super elites, but no depth ("B" and "C" level runners behind them). Where are those runners?

2) Even their elites are quite a small group, only a dozen or so

3) They have some great distance runners but no sprinters

We all agree that Ethiopia has less depth than one might first expect (and I and others have offered some valid theories on why this might be, including my recent one that you acknowledge above. You, on the other hand, insinuate more sinister reasons for this dynamic). But you ALSO said that not only do they not have the 13:30-14:00 guys you would expect to see, but only a "dozen" amazing runners(point 2 above). THAT was the point I was taking down with my list of 50. You were exaggerating the number of elites they have, or defining "amazing" differently than I.

I think it's easy to see that many of the top runners in the world dope. Just because these guys continually pass their tests doesn't mean they are in fact clean. The recent BALCO scandal is a prime example of how new-age steroids and other PEDs are UNDETECTABLE. Why can't you guys understand that just because Bekele, Geb, El G, Lagat or any of these other runners pass a test doesn't actually mean they are clean?

They have access to then newest, most technologically advanced drugs in the world. Designer steroids, human growth hormone, and who knows what else CAN NOT be detected by testing agencies. So when I watch Bekele run his last 5k of a 10k at a pace that is at the all out 5k pace for a guy like Alan Webb or Adam Goucher, I get suspicious. You'd have to be a complete fool not to be suspicious. I think we've reached a point in competive track and field were many of the peformances we're witnessing can only be accounted for with drugs. Since the 80s, but especially in the past decade, distance running has entered the equivalant of Major League Baseball's asterisks' era; every world record we see should be viewed with suspicion just like Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds' homerun spectacles were.

So what if ethiopians have better o2 retention than other runners. There is probably something that slows them down as well, or some ability that gives whites and asians an advantage as well. The point is if someone has some awesome ability to run faster because of some natural selection then doesn't it make sense that there is some other advantage other populations have. Besides o2 retention isn't vitally essential to racing anyways; it's o2 delivery and removal if more o2 is being stored in a heme molecule, fewer heme molecules can be used to extract Co2 and vice versa. Basically not everything is as cut and dry as a study may make it seem. And if the o2 is stored in the muscle cells instead of the blood, then whatever advantage this equates to is quite small since very little extra o2 can be stored in muscle cells in the first place. This advantageous adaptation is probably a very diminished ability and is only inflated by here-say and speculation. Anyways who knows if whites, asians, hispanics, WHATEVER have some ATP advantage, or extra Blood volume, or better o2 intake, or WHATEVER.

Anyways take a look at the ethiopians and kenyans. THey're skinny as hell and ran all their lives. They also have the most efficient muscular builds and form. Before saying they use drugs look at these points instead. Most white/asian runners come no where near africans in efficiency or weight/power ratios. And these factors are the most influenced by training. think about that. the only talent i've seen displayed on this board is bitching. some talent that is.

The number after the event indicates where the athlete ranks on the world performance list. What I see is that Ethiopia has about 12 elite runners (top 20 in the world) whereas Kenya has four times that number.

By the way, someone said that Kenya's population explains it, but Ethiopia has more than twice the number of people as does Kenya.

Ethiopia

800: 135, 224, 270, 373, 412, 468, 550, 720

1500: 23, 62, 245, 303, 328, 435, 448, 487, 556, 567, 625

5000: 1, 5, 8, 11, 14, 18, 21, 50, 63, 65, 80, 88, 94

98, 199, 220, 229, 323, 327, 344, 346, 432, 448, 544, 734

10k: 1, 2, 8, 14, 15, 24, 25, 31, 36, 38, 40, 102, 309

Mar: 1, 37, 43, 49, 59, 62, 76, 79, 88, 101

Steeple: 57, 75, 160, 174, 185, 247, 285, 352

Kenya

800: 1, 12, 14, 24, 29, 40, 42, 43, 47, 50, 52, 56, 62, 66

1500: 2, 5, 7, 8, 14, 18, 22, 24, 26, 27, 35, 48, 51, 57, 60

5k: 2, 4, 6, 7, 9, 19, 20, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 26, 28, 30, 31, 32, 33, 38, 40, 41, 44, 45, 49, 51, 56, 57, 61, 64, 67

10k: 4, 6, 7, 10, 12, 13, 16, 20, 21, 22, 23, 28, 30, 32, 34

Mar: 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 9, 10, 12, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 21, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 33, 35, 39, 40, 41, 45, 46

Steeple: 2, 3, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 13, 16, 18, 23, 27, 48,

USA

800: 14, 23, 25, 26, 49, 53, 59, 81, 85, 86

1500: 1, 12, 31, 36, 38, 58, 64, 72, 78, 81, 85, 87, 89, 96

5000: 15, 34, 39, 43, 52, 58, 60, 74, 75, 81, 95, 96, 101,

10k: 26, 51, 54, 72, 81, 85, 117, 121, 126, 136, 137, 147

Mar.: 52, 100, 204, 210, 263, 316, 448, 480

Steeple: 19, 33, 35, 36, 50, 69, 94, 96, 99, 111, 113

who do you say the greatest haile or paavo nurmi?

Gebrselassie approaching Record for Running Records

Thursday 16 March 2006

Haile Gebrselassie posted his third road running World record (pending ratification) of 2006 last weekend when he ran 1:11:37 for 25 kilometres at Alphen aan den Rijn.

In January, he had run 58:55 for the Half Marathon with a 55:48 for 20 kilometres en route, both marks are also pending ratification.

The 32-year-old Ethiopian running legend continues to add to the wide range of events at which he has set a World record or World best performance. These now include 2000 metres (indoors), 3000 metres (indoors), 2 miles (indoors and out), 5000 metres (indoors and out), 10,000 metres, 10 kilometres, 15 kilometres, 10 miles, 20 kilometres, the Half Marathon and 25 kilometres.

On twenty-two occasions Gebrselassie has bettered the previous fastest time in history. However, not all of these have been ratified as IAAF world records.

The Two Miles is not an official record distance, indoors or outdoors, nor is the indoors 2000 metres. The 10 Miles is also not on the approved list of road running distances and a 15-kilometre split was not officially timed.

The great 'Phantom Finn' Paavo Nurmi had 22 ratified IAAF World records – and an astonishing 18 more unratified marks. Among non-runners pole vaulter Sergey Bubka is in a class of his own with 37 official marks and two others not approved.

To pass Nurmi's ratified total, Gebrselassie would probably have to return to the track and go after the rarely contested long distance marks. But these ought to be easy pickings: the World record times for 20,000 metres, 25,000 metres, and 30,000 metres have all been surpassed by him on the road, as would an extension of his best Half Marathon pace for just past another minute to complete the distance in a One Hour Run.

Marty Post for the IAAF

Listed below are Gebrselassie's World records and World best performances.

1) 12:56.96 - 5000m - Hengelo 04 Jun 94

2) 8:07.46 * - 2 miles - Kerkrade 27 May 95

3) 26:43.53 - 10,000m - Hengelo 05 Jun 95

4) 12:44.39 - 5000m - Zurich 16 Aug 95

5) 13:10.98 - 5000m - Sindelfingen (i) 27 Jan 96

6) 7:30.72 - 3000m - Stuttgart (i) 04 Feb 96

7) 12:59.04 - 5000m - Stockholm (i) 20 Feb 97

8) 8:01.08 * - 2 miles - Hengelo 31 May 97

9) 26:31.32 - 10,000m - Oslo 04 Jul 97

10) 12:41.86 - 5000m - Zurich 13 Aug 97

11) 7:26.14 - 3000m - Karlsruhe (i) 25 Jan 98

12) 4:52.86 * - 2000m - Birmingham (i) 15 Feb 98

13) 26:22.75 - 10,000m - Hengelo 01 Jun 98

14) 12:39.36 - 5000m - Helsinki 13 Jun 98

15) 12:50.38 - 5000m - Birmingham (i) 14 Feb 99

16) 27:02 - 10km - Doha 11 Dec 02

17) 8:04.69 * - 2 miles - Birmingham (i) 21 Feb 03

18) 41:22 ** - 15km - Tilburg 04 Sep 05

19) 44:23 * - 10 miles - Tilburg 04 Sep 05

20) 55:48*** - 20km - Tempe 15 Jan 06

21) 58:55*** - Half Marathon - Tempe 15 Jan 06

22) 1:11:37*** - 25km - Alphen aan den Rijn 12 Mar 06

(i) indoor venue

* not at an IAAF record event

** not officially timed

***pending ratification