True
True
so...this is better somehow??
I find it refreshing to know that some elite runners play the same games that the rest of us play. It's just too bad that everyone here (myself included) interpreted the video incorrectly.
...yeah i guess im lost...im sure this little bet is ...fun or whatever...but i really dont understand ...how this makes it look any better?
Another guy wrote:
I was at the marathon on Sunday. As far as I could see, there was not an elite woman without a guy pacing her. I don't know that they had guys with them the whole time, but at least at the half marathon, I saw guys running with every top woman I saw, and most of them appeared to be talking to the women they were pacing. so I don't see such a big deal with Deena's pacing. I don't really like it that they get paced by guys, but hey- they all seemed to be getting something similar. I'd say just let it go.
Sorry, but you are wrong:
Deena Kastor - 2 Hanson Escorts (one assigned to her, one assigned to first place) and one personal pacer, Mike Mckeeman
Constantina Tomescu-Dita - 1 Hanson Escort assigned to 2nd place
Masako Chiba - No Pacer
Colleen De Reuck - Personal Pacer Kim Gilliard
Eri Hayakawa - No Pacer
Blake Russell - No Pacer
Kathy Butler - No Pacer
Tatyana Petrova - No Pacer
Adrianna Fernandez (DNF) - Personal Pacer Don't know his name
Grazyana Syreck - No Pacer
None of the Hansons were assigned to a certain athlete, but instead a certain group. The elite athlete coordinator asked the women what paces they wanted to go out at. Deena said 108:30-1:09. They put 2 escorts with that group and told them to escort and not pace. Dita said that she wanted to go out no faster than 1:10. So they assigned 1 escort to go with whoever else wanted to go out at 1:10. It was fairly obvious that Dita did not go out at 1:10 and Chad Johnson did his job and escorted her rather than pace her. At the mile mark Dita was ahead of Deena and Chad went with her rather than pace her. The only reason for asking a pace was to let the escorts know what to expect.
wejo wrote:
3) should men's pacers do anything other than run on the side/in front of the women?
Wejo -
When has it been OK for a escort to run in front of the woman he is escorting? On a windy day, having someone run in front of you blocking the wind is a much bigger advantage than having someone yell encouragement.
If this is okay with you, why don't we get bikes to pace the guys, or maybe something bigger, like a bus. A bus with Big Blue on board. The IBM folks can program Big Blue drive the bus exactly 1 second faster than the existing world record while always taking the perfect tangents. That way, the men don't have to race at all - they can just run behind the magic bus...no pacing duties, no untrustworthy rabbits, no wind...hey they're still running the race right - so it's fair?
The Magic Bus Marathon, we could run it at the salt flats where they test the rocket cars - no hills what-so-ever. It'll be great
What color should we paint the bus, I like green.
No way should the bus be green, that was Paul Wellstone's bus color!
http://www.startribune.com/dynamic/story.php?template=print_a&story=5644856
Alos, Paul was a cross-country runner.
Otherwise have a separate start time for the women. There is nothing worse than a ham and egger running near a non-paced woman runner, mucking it up to the camera. That would have to be disconcerting on a different level which validates pace setters to keep the women out of harm's way.
Looking over the videos and pictures I don't think Deena or Constantina would have had any different outcome. From all the video I watched and all the pictures Deena and Constantina were always on the front not tucked way back in the pack. In fact I would say other than the escorts most the the males in the group were trying to keep up with them drafting off Deena and the escorts.
The wind was coming from all over so the women would have had to been tucked right behind another runner to take advantage and I didn't see that.
And down the final mile nothing was going to help Deena even someone yelling at her she had hit the wall.
I don't see any foul. From all the video I saw maybe Deena and Constantina should have tucked in more with the men and saved more for the final miles.
On the scene wrote:
I dare anyone to produce an audio tape that proves me wrong.
You are ridiculous.
oldguy wrote:
On the scene wrote:The only words that Clint shared with Deena was whether or not a MALE was getting close so that she would be more careful of not getting clipped.
Yeah, right. I'm sure that's what Clint was telling Deena after he looked back at Dita with a mile to go: "Deena, there are no MALES within 150 meters of you, so don't worry about getting your heels clipped by MALES."
oldguy, you are right. I think anyone would have to be quite gullible to actually believe that Clint was being mindful of Deena's heels in the final mile of the race. Don't worry though... Mr. H, I mean "on the scene" has a way of putting so much spin on everything he says in a vain effort to make everything his program does look perfect. He ends up believing his own absurd "logic" and there is no reasoning with him.
marathon pacing wrote:
There is one fact that seems to commonly be left out, Dita had the exact same information and assistance as Deena. In the last three miles of the race after there was a gap built up, Deena had Clint alongside and Dita and Landers. Neither escort broke the wind for either runner during that stretch from what could be seen on tape or from what those on-site have said. It appears that in the area of 1-mile to go the support for both was reduced. Clint stepped 1-2 steps behind Deena, and Landers bridged the gap and caught Deena, passing her and beating her to the line. This could have been an aid to Dita actually because she could have used the acceleration of Landers to catch Deena knowing he had the strength and speed to catch her. During the last mile, Clint was also yelling in support of Landers, most of his looking around was to find his teammate who did his job for 25+ miles and then ran for a PR since it was there.
Neither had an advantage and Dita could have gained the bigger advantage in reality. She could have jumped on Landers' push over the last mile, had him break the wind for her, and caught Deena for the win.
I think one thing that must be remembered is that Dita has not stated any issues with any of this. The game was played fair on both sides. Although we may not all support the idea of escorts, pacers, and the like, on this day the race was run mixed, with escorts, and all were given equal support and treatment.
Sorry, Landers did not pace Dita one step of the way.
I was at 20.75 and Deena was tucked in with several runners on a windier section (heading NE into the wind) - no big deal. But I weatched the tape of the CBS2 coverage and saw a few things that, while not against the rules, were unusual and, quite frankly, embarassing to the race I believe.
At several points Verran communicated with the race vehicle to his left and immediately says something to Deena. This came immediately after he looked over his shoulder (and this was not a small "glance" - he literally turned around). What he is saying I don't have any idea. But the timing after looking back and then communicating with the race vehicle was interesting.
Second, Deena clearly is running directly behind him for streched going up Michigan Avenue (and the wind at that point according to those I spoke to who ran was not "from all over" - it was coming right at you as you ran up Mich. Ave.). At one point, Verran points to his right shoulder and says something to Deena. Again, I have no idea what he said, but she immediately started to run right off his shoulder.
This in a marathon that in 2001, more or less, stopped the men's race to let Tergat catch up at around mile 17. No big deal if Tergat would have won, but the rabbit won and slowing him and the other pacer down to a trot for about a minute clearly affected his race and the race as a whole. It was a bit surreal.
When a race is focusing on records as much as Chicago does, it can be a bit of a faustian bargain.
I love how you f***ers are so fast to criticize and crucify Deena for "help" that may not have even been solicited but you are probably the same people who go home and rub one out thinking about Paula Radcliffe who was flat out paced by a Kenyan male in order to get her record. Most of you guys are running "snobs" who more than likely haven't even come within 20 minutes of Deena at the marathon distance. Grow some balls and give her some credit...she ran over 7 minutes for the last mile and the other chick still couldn't catch her.
you must be joking wrote:
where do you draw the line? wrote:I understand those that want to question pacing/rabbiting/assistance in general, but I am tired of reading the comments that Clint and Deena were "unethical." So I ask those so quick to accuse Deena of gaining an unfair advantage where do you draw the line?
Uh, well, since you ask:
BASICALLY, WHEN AN "ESCORT" HIRED BY THE RACE TURNS AROUND AND SURVEYS ***THE COMPETITION*** AND REPORTS THE INFORMATION TO THE "ESCORTED" ATHLETE.
Is that clear enough for you?
http://cbs2chicago.com/video?id=16841@wbbm.dayport.com&cid=33Watch just around/after 2:16:30. If after watching this you can still say with a straight face that you think this race was clean, then we obviously have very different ideas about competitive road running.
Sorry, I guess I'm a little slow, but it's still not clear enough for me. How do you explain rabbits ("escorts") in track races, pacers for men and women in marathons, sharing a water bottle with a competitor, the list goes on and on. Do you think teammates running side by side in XC ever share information about the competition after looking back during a race? Have you ever noticed the Kenyans and Ethiopians sacrificing themselves during a track or XC race for the benefit of an individual or the team? Is that any less ethical if they aren't trying to run their own individual best race? What if Meb and Culpepper had been together late in the Olympics and Meb looked back and shared with Culpepper what he saw? Is it unethical? What about coaches coaching from the sideline? What if the coaches of some athletes aren't able to attend, should the other coaches stay mum during a race?
Women's marathoning has produced very unique situations in that men can obviously pace throughout an entire race, so I don't think Chicago was very unique by any means. And how do you measure who benefited most by a pacer -- Deena or Dita? Maybe without her pacer, Dita isn't even close. It's a ridiculous argument.
Should pacing/rabbiting be questioned? Absolutely. But I don't think Deena/Clint deserve the attacks. Deena has proven to be one of the classiest athletes in our sport and she deserves better. As I wrote on a different thread, we'd eat our own in this sport if we could. Every week posters are bashing someone else... Webb, Ritz, Meb, Wisconsin, Wetmore, Warhurst, Vigil, Hudson, Radcliffe, Hanson's, etc. This week it's Deena. It's endless dribble and this thread seems to be more of the same.
So, with a straight face, I still don't understand where we draw the line in regards to pacing, rabbiting, etc. I understand clearly that you don't think what happened at Chicago was ethical, but what about other cases of pacing, assistance, etc.? Do you have a cheat sheet that explains what's acceptable and what isn't?
oldguy is correct wrote:
Mr. H, I mean "on the scene" has a way of putting so much spin on everything he says in a vain effort to make everything his program does look perfect. He ends up believing his own absurd "logic" and there is no reasoning with him.
I was thinking just the opposite. I wondered why neither of the bros. have come to the defense of Verran. One thing that I have learned with both bros. is that they always fight for their own (even when they are wrong) and they also always post under their real name so that everyone knows they are defending their own.
Dak Runner wrote:
she ran over 7 minutes for the last mile and the other chick still couldn't catch her.
Not true. That was incorrect info from the TV guy who fixated on a banner that said "mile to go" but wasn't actually at the mile to go mark. Deena's 40K and 25 mile splits indicate that she ran the last mile in a little over six minutes.
Bottom Line: Deena accomplished this under her own power.
I don't care is there was a burrito truck in front of her, if she covers 26.2 under her own auspices, she's golden.
Nice race Deena!!
It's true, in fact I calculated 7:11.
Here are the splits I got from the link:
http://cbs2chicago.com/chicagomarathon_elite
Miles 1 to the halfway were almost all even 5:15's bringing them in at 1:09:16
13 1:08:43
14 1:13:58 (14th mile run in 5:15)
15 1:19:12 (5:14)
16 1:24:32 (5:20)
17 1:29:45 (5:13)
18 1:35:06 (5:21)
19 1:40:28 (5:22)
20 1:45:50 (5:22)
21 1:51:12 (5:22)
22 1:56:36 (5:24 - this split is in error as 1:55:36 on the link)
23 2:02:07 (5:31 - got this split from runnersworld link at bottom)
24 2:07:49 (5:42)
25 2:13:47 (5:58)
25.2 2:14:14 (reported as one mile to go in link)
26.2 2:21:25 (7:11)