Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

For me personally, I've stayed away from the 400's because it's hardier to dial in the correct effort. With longer reps, you can easily get a good feel for how hard you are working. I would definitely try the 400s with a lactate meter though.

Directly from sirpoc, either in this thread or Strava group, can't remember which.

He was generating the same lactate at the 400 rep paces he posted as right up to 3k, but they made him feel more tired the next day or more importantly 48 hours later, than the 1k and above reps.

To me, if you feel like this, makes total sense to drop them. If you now look at that he's dropped them, it hasn't hurt his short range stuff at all. He's still progressing in a nice way despite running never close to race pace. The thing to remember here is really only lactate/ load is what matters. We are just using pace, as a simplifier to try to get close to the lactate we want.

We are really lucky to have this thread and all the free information that sirpoc and others provide. This could easily be charged for or behind a paywall. For real for me, I've seen people charge 100s a month for content like this. It's all free and open. LRC is a very toxic place, but this thread has restored my faith a bit. Thank you all.

Definitely the hardest workout to get right.

Until you can repeat this one many times, you just have to accept that this one will be 'a little over' until you get some good speed efficiency.

HR is totally useless on this workout to, so you really have to be conservative on the 400s until you know what the numbers look like mid workout, but the first couple of these are going to need some extra rest after.

The hardest part is that it feels amazing for the first 2/3 rds regardless, then that last 1/3 you know if the wheels are going to fall off or not

I really like 60-90s reps on short recovery, and I think it has some unique advantages over longer slower reps, but I also think it makes sense for a lot of people to hold off on that style of work.

It's one of the most challenging workout schemes to execute correctly. A lot of people are underdeveloped enough aerobically that they can still make incredible progress with easier-to-execute workouts in the more familiar threshold to sub-threshold effort range, so it's just not yet worth the skill development effort and risk of overreaching to take on the more difficult to execute workout.

The whole philosophy discussed in this thread basically boils down to just to doing the easiest workouts that will still give you some progress so that you can do the most of those workouts and get the most progress in the safest and most sustainable way.

Ik this thread is about doing single thresholds. But I have been doing double threshold for quite a while and still thought this was relevant about the 400m intervals.

Firstly I think the 400m efforts should 100% be done on the treadmill. You don't have to control pace and once you have done it once or twice you know exactly what you need to aim for. You can then progress it gradually as your other workouts get easier.

Secondly, the 400m efforts are a totally different stimulus to the 3min, 6 min and 12 min efforts. If you're doing only 3 thresholds a week then it would make a lot more sense to cut out the 400s because it's highly likely to be the session where you spend the least time at the beneficial threshold zone you are targeting. Whereas if you are doubling and then do an easier session on the Saturday, you have slightly more time to add this workout in. I do it as a Tuesday PM workout after 5 x 6 mins in the morning.

Agreed. When KI first did 400s, his lactate was always very close to/above LT. I haven't seen him do them in a while.

Have loved reading this thread! Only question I have is what about shorter distance? Currently trying to get back into PR shape for 800/1500 and have been following more speed focused plan. Reading thread has turned my head but everything seems to be 5k+ focused. Would love to hear if anyone has found this kind of threshold training good for true mid distance. Assume it would be good for 1500 but not sure about 800. Would be really nice to have more relaxed workouts for me, as speed days and race pace stuff has been tough to manage injuries with as getting older!

MoVB

This is a really great question. My guess is that you could aim for shorter reps (5x6min or 10x3 min on Tues, 25x60s on Thursdays), then do the usual hill session (10x30s if working into shape, then build up to 2x10x30s if it's not too much) that the Norwegians do on Saturdays, with two days easy afterward. The hills are intense but easier on the joints than track sessions. Muscular power and anaerobic capacity become more important to train here if races are shorter, but I think implementing threshold sessions is still helpful for raising aerobic capacity. Hope others with more experience with this can chime in – these are just my initial thoughts!

This is a very good question. But, from a coaching standpoint , this is an amazing blanket approach that will likely cover 80% of hobby joggers for a one size fits all approach. Unfortunately, most hobby joggers tend to fall into the 5k through Marathon range. This approach for what my 2 cents is worth, is likely the best way I've ever seen for someone on 5-9 hours a week. Even if you just use the pace guide , which might need shifting around a little bit as per individual due to being at different aerobic stages ....it's well within what's reasonable for most people who have some aerobic background to just plug and play.

Now, 800 is so specific and I have coached quite a few people here..... that I think you have to probably accept that if you are an 800/1500 guy, I wouldn't train like this. If you are a 1500/5k guy, absolutely I would almost not change anything other than some hills maybe every second or third week outside of the race season. The 800 though is just so specific , it's probably the most fun when you get it right, but the hardest to get to that point. I really don't think this is THE thread for 800 guys, there's better and more important stuff to focus on. But even the 1500 is so aerobic, someone who has capacity to improve and pull their aerobic growth from below, I'd be surprised if they didn't improve with sticking to the spirit and fundamentals of this approach.

800/1500/5000 need that 400 threshold workout in there for speed support. Thats why the Ingeb brothers are never dropping that workout in their schedule. If you are targeting 5000 and over, you probably drop the 400s and the hills until you are trying to peak. For 10k and up your speed support is going to be the 1k/3:00 efforts

Keep in mind that the Ingebritsen brothers do heavy sub-threshold training for the base phase, but then move towards a pre-comp phase where they do a lot of training with faster reps (200, 300, and 400 repeats). If you're aiming to rip some fast 800s and 1500s, then adding a speed-focused phase at the tail end of your training should help

Unless you are talking about Kristoffer, what Jakob and the others do is pretty irrelevant. I really don't know how people keep bringing this back to double threshold, Bakken or Jakob. What sirpoc and Kristoffer are doing is totally not anything like that. If you are "looking to rip some fast 800s " on particular, this is not the thread for you. Absolutely this method is probably as good as I've ever seen laid out on the internet. But 800s? Cmon. You wouldn't train like this thread suggests as a hobby jogger for 800s and nor should you.

Even for 800/1500 athletes, threshold and subthreshold training are key, as Renato Canova said at the time. Search Strava for 2 names, both from the same training group, and see how they train: Samuel Chapple and Ryan Clarke.

worldathletics.org

Samuel CHAPPLE | Profile | World Athletics

Samuel CHAPPLE, Netherlands - 1500 Metres, Mile, 800 Metres, 800 Metres Short Track, 1500 Metres Short Track, 3000 Metres

Link:worldathletics.org/athletes/netherland...

worldathletics.org

Ryan CLARKE | Profile | World Athletics

Ryan CLARKE, Netherlands - 800 Metres Short Track, 1000 Metres, 1000 Metres Short Track, 1500 Metres, 800 Metres, 400 Metres, 400 Metres Short Track

Link:worldathletics.org/athletes/netherland...

? Never mentioned anything about double threshold or Bakken, so I have no idea what you're on about.

The original poster was asking how he can modify this training for shorter (yet still aerobically dominant) distances and I told him how he could modify it to fit his specific race needs before an upcoming event. Giving oneself a small periodization phase prior to an upcoming mid-distance race where there is a focus on speed is a well-documented practice in sports science literature. There's no reason why it can't be done for hobby joggers, it's not that hard to implement. The 200/300/400 reps should be run at race pace, so they're not being run all out.

Just like people are slightly modifying sirpoc's training for marathon training by including a few longer LR sessions, you can slightly modify it ~6 weeks before an upcoming race like the 1500 by replacing some of the sub-T sessions with race-pace 200s/300s/400s. It's really not that complicated.

You could do something similar to what Hobbs Kessler has been doing. He does speed development on Monday, threshold Tuesday. Hills Thursday. Threshold Saturday. Sunday off. That might be a tougher schedule when you swap the hills for more specific track work. It might be harder to recover from those track sessions for another threshold 48 hours later but just an idea.

It's a complete false economy this thread. The only thing consistent about sircrocked's training is he runs every day. ANYONE would have improved doing that. It's shocking to me people are praising this thread when all is happening to sircrocked and jakobs fat brother, is that they are running more. Imagine if they actually followed a RESPECTED training program. Something we KNOW works. Sircrocked doesn't even race. Always just training. Real loser territory.

Nothing you said it true, lol. Sirpoc's training is incredibly consistent and he has done different training in the past that produced worse results. And he does race? 🤔

Hey coach. That's not really fair. The amount of beer I drink, I think I'm probably fatter than Jakobs brother? If you aren't careful, I will replace you with the Swedish coach who shall not be named.

Not only is his training consistent, the progress shows no signs of slowing down. Trolls need to be fed I guess, this thread deals with them well. I think this thread has literally helped hundreds , you only need look at Strava group. At least that is troll free.

As sirpoc above still clearly reads, good luck on your progress and hopeful you race again soon. You must be in very good shape based on your current workouts. Sub 33 very much looks a high probability and maybe 1:12 or lower at least for HM. I still think race between you and Kristoffer is what internet needs. Forget still Kerr v Jakob. This thread would provide real Norway v Britain. For the pros I think Norway has edge, I predict British edge here as I think sirpoc maybe beats Kristoffer in 10k 😅