Official Russia vs Ukraine War Thread

NATO in Ukraine was a red line. Russia has said this for decades.

The said the same thing about Georgia. Guess what happened in Georgia after the Rose Revolution when Saakashvili made NATO membership his #1 priority.

Why does the US not outright declare that Taiwan is an independent nation and that China can F- right off?

Because we're not willing to bleed for Taiwan and doing so would trigger a war.

The same was true of Ukraine but we did it anyway and now Ukraine is being destroyed while we sit and do nothing.

If you push a little dude into a fight he can't win and then you cheer him on but refuse to actually help him you're not a hero you're a d*ck.

The Ukrainians are the good guys. NOT the people sending them weapons and money.

Ukrainians started this war, not anyone else. If they did not start this war with the first then subsequent violence, America would not have shown up to fuel it further.

Perhaps America/NATO would have started it another way later, if peace was unpalatable. But it happened regardless without anyone's real help because peace was ignored by Ukraine Nazis. Arming Ukraine after the start is moot. It wouldn't be happening at all if Ukraine's Nazis didn't make it so.

Here are the "good guy" Nazis who made this war possible:

jacobin.com

A US-Backed, Far Right–Led Revolution in Ukraine Helped Bring Us to the Brink of War

In 2014 Ukraine, great power gamesmanship, righteous anger at a corrupt status quo, and opportunistic far-right extremists toppled the government in the Maidan Revolution. Today’s crisis in Ukraine can’t be understood without...

Link:jacobin.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-ne...

nytimes.com

Nazi Symbols on Ukraine’s Front Lines Highlight Thorny Issues of History

By Thomas Gibbons-Neff

Troops’ use of patches bearing Nazi emblems risks fueling Russian propaganda and spreading imagery that the West has spent a half-century trying to eliminate.

Link:www.nytimes.com/2023/06/05/world/europ...

vice.com

How a Far-Right Battalion Became a Part of Ukraine’s National Guard

The Azov Battalion, which bears a Wolfsangel logo, trains civilians in Ukraine. Here's how a 79-year-old woman holding an AK-47 thrust the group into the spotlight.

Link:www.vice.com/en/article/3ab7dw/azov-ba...

Republican "feel" things with Tarot cards and dousing rods.... like Iraq has WMD's. They get all emotional that things might exist because they really feel deep down that their chakras are aligning with Leo's moon rising and so WMD's.

Much of what you say is accurate. When you roll out the partisan BS, you lose any progress you made.

Please call yourself "HalfTheAdultInTheRoom" because that's what you are when you devolve into 3rd grade partisan finger pointing.

The problem is AMERICA, not either side. Congress always votes for the wars, always. That is bi[artisan.

You are democrat and republican. You don't have a choice in the matter.

The Trump version of the Republican party is not the neo-con version it replaced.

The entire deep state and half the republican party turned on Trump because he tried to end the forever war gravy train.

The US public was vastly in favor of supporting South Vietnam, especially when it just resources and supplies. Things changes with the draft and prolonged military deployment and failure.

80% of US public supported the first gulf war! You’re just making stuff up!

It’s hard to take you seriously

The House resolution to attack Iraq passed 250-183 with 180 Democrats voting against it. In the senate the Dems also almost all voted against it with a 52-47 vote.

The problem with ignorant people with low IQs is that they think every fact they don't know about is just made up...

Once the shooting started in Vietnam the Democrats turned on Johnson in droves.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Pivot to Trump because bi-partisan congress backs every war? Uh huh. Ignore the Tarot card read that Bush had at his staff at their WMD seance and Peyote trip, to feeeeeeeeel the WMD's.

Lol. phucking loser you are.

Trump didn't end any wars. Zero. And he continued the ones he inherited and even made them worse because he works for the Gravy train.

You trump t ards as bad as UkroNazi pumpers. All of you are partisan losers. Too stupid to realize YOU are the problem. American keeps losing wars because all of you are only half an adult.

businessinsider.com

Trump may have bombed Yemen more than all previous US presidents combined, new report finds

Charles R. Davis

In his first year in office, President Trump loosened rules of engagement and oversaw a dramatic escalation of US attacks in Yemen.

Link:www.businessinsider.com/trump-have-bom...

theconversation.com

Under the Trump administration, US airstrikes are killing more civilians

@stevejfeldstein

Ten months of data reveal some alarming trends.

Link:theconversation.com/under-the-trump-ad...

time.com

Donald Trump Promised to End the 'Forever Wars.' Instead, He's Leaving Thousands of Troops and Allies Behind

Despite his 2016 promises, Trump did not succeed in ending conflict in either Iraq or Afghanistan

Link:time.com/5912938/trump-afghanistan-ira...

If you were half as clever as you are ignorant and angry you might be capable of making a decent point. Alas...

Trump didn't START any wars which is more than you can say for any other president in decades.

He was also working against the entire uniparty machine which wants the wars.

It's not as easy as you idiots think to get into office and make everything perfect overnight particularly when the entire deep state and media are working against you from day 1.

Why didn't he end the endless wars he inherited which he promised to do?

Why didn't he rally congress to end the wars, which he promised to end?

Why did he increase bombings and civilian deaths for the wars he inherited?

He did nothing to be anti-war. Not starting new wars is not the litmus test for being anti-war.

Ending all wars is. And THEN not starting any new ones.

The opposition to the first Iraq war authorization in congress in 1991 was due to the fact that there were ongoing negotiations with Saddam Hussein who was willing to pull his forces out of Kuwait if countries convened a conference on the status of Palestine. There were also signs that Saddam was pretty much willing to pull out of Kuwait in exchange for an agreement on oil drilling (Kuwaitis had been slant drilling and draining the crap out of oil fields shared with Iraq for years, which was why Saddam blew up Kuwait's oil wells on the way out of town). So, Dem opposition was primarily due to the fact that the war authorization was being rammed through at a time when a diplomatic solution was still feasible.

As for Vietnam, there was a big difference between the anti-war left and the Democratic party. The Democratic party was steadfastly anti-communist and pro-intervention and were united with Republicans. The Gulf of Tonkin resolution passed the House 416-0 and the Senate 88-2. The anti-war left gained momentum when Johnson escalated the war and started the draft. The Vietnam war hawks tried to paint the anti-war left as being pro communist, noting high profile visits to N. Vietnam by Daniel Berrigan and Jane Fonda. But that happened very late in the conflict. The real concerns of the anti-war left was that the war was just a horrific slaughter with the US government lying about the status of the war (Pentagon Papers) and the US involvement in Laos and Cambodia.

No changes to report this morning. Russia is still in Ukraine and Crimea is still Russia. Will update tmrw. Have a great day everyone.

This thread is a good analysis of the "coup" and how it is shaking out. Basically, whether Prigozhin was legitimately coming for Moscow or the whole thing was an orchestrated fake, the episode has consolidated Putin's power. Author Michael Tracey is on the left politically, btw

Further, the anti-war left is not monolithic. A segment of the anti-war left is pacifist. They believe that war is inherently wrong and futile. They believe that non-violent resistance is far superior to taking up arms and point to Gandhi, Mandela and the US civil rights leaders as evidence that non-violent resistance is effective and superior to war. The true pacifists universally condemn violence, both as acts of aggression and in self defense. They do not go around saying "Russia is bad for invading, but they do have some good args and the US is more at fault than Russia . . . ."

Then, there is an anti-war left that is not pacifist. Noam Chomsky is probably the best example. Their priority is avoiding war by diplomacy, arms treaties, etc. But they are not against using force for self defense. Chomsky's view on the Ukraine conflict is that Russia committed a crime of aggression and Ukraine has a fundamental right of self defense. But Chomsky also takes the US to task for its diplomatic failures that lead to the invasion. Chomsky basically claims that if you poke a pit bull and it bites, you shouldn't have poked it. But the pit bull doesn't get to run loose around the play ground.

Finally, there is an anti-war left that horse shoes with the right in taking the position that Ukraine should not be allowed to defend itself with any aid from the West because the West is inherently imperialist and any military aid to Ukraine makes Ukraine imperialist by some sort of political transitive property. Thus, the war is just a proxy war. This segment of the anti-war left breaks from the prior anti-war left in its efforts to somehow justify Russia rolling over Ukraine, which is what would certainly happen if the West did not provide military and financial support to Ukraine. This is where it is hard to discern Russian propaganda from true anti-war leftists. The Gray Zone-ers (Mate, Blumenthal) and the RT/Ruptly vets (Ritter, MacGregor, Lee Camp) and others like Greenwald and Jimmy Dore.

Oh boy, who is really ruling the US, because it can't be this demented old man.

dailymail.co.uk

Biden says Russia is clearly 'losing the war in IRAQ'

https://www.facebook.com/DailyMail

President Joe Biden departed the White House Wednesday with a cheat sheet on the Wagner uprising, but still bungled a response when asked about Russian President Vladimir Putin's standing.

Link:www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12243...

Prigozhin was coming for Gerasimov and Shoigu. Prigozhin has always claimed that Putin was being duped by Gerasimov and Shoigu. Prigozhin never wanted to topple Putin or even become a Russian politician. If anything Prigozhin did more to help Putin's war in Ukraine than anyone else in Russia. Wagner was responsible for the extremely costly effort to take Bakhmut, which was the only victory Russia has had since Ukraine's fall counteroffensive in 2022. And that battle is also what set Prigozhin off against the MoD. MoD did not like seeing Wagner outperform them and wanted to steal the victory in Bakhmut from Wagner.

Putin did want to destroy Wagner, but Wagner clearly had support within the MoD. Wagner was able to take MoD HQ in Rostov-on-Don without firing a shot. Putin had to agree to Lukashenko's deal and give Wagner and Prigozhin amnesty. There are reports that Surovikin knew about the plot and may have called off RU response. And there are now reports that Surovikin has been detained.

So, Putin nearly had his armed forces split in two and wormed his way out of it by giving Prigozhin a free pass so he could take out Surovikin. In the end, Putin has lost his best fighting force on the group (Wagner) and consolidated power into Gerasimov and Shoigu away from Surovikin who was infinitely more competent. If that is a flex for Putin, he is in big trouble.

cnn.com

Wall Street Journal: Wagner boss planned to capture top Russian defense chiefs | CNN

Rob Picheta

Wagner leader Yevgeny Prigozhin planned to seize two of Russia top military officials when he launched a short-lived mutiny on Saturday, the Wall Street Journal reported on Wednesday, citing Western officials.

Link:www.cnn.com/2023/06/28/europe/wagner-p...

reuters.com

Senior Russian general knew about Prigozhin's plans, New York Times reports

Reuters

General Sergey Surovikin, the deputy commander of Russia's military operations in Ukraine, had advance knowledge that the mercenary chief Yevgeny Prigozhin was planning a rebellion against Moscow's defence officials, the New...

Link:www.reuters.com/world/europe/senior-ru...

You are no longer typing how Ukraine is going to win this in a few days.

You are making Vietnam, Desert Storm points and you are spinning the coup.

For some reason you are pretending U.S. had nothing to do with coup attempt.

Putin certainly did not finance a coup against himself. Someone or some group financed the coup attempt. U.S. officials admitted having prior knowledge but not sharing prior knowledge of coup with NATO.

Democrats and Republicans are quasi private clubs. Neither Democrats or Republicans are required by law to debate internally.

Biden admin. threw a Hail Mary. A Republican governor is going to bring up Biden administration's failed war in Ukraine.

Are you a paid for c.i.a. officer?

Google “first gulf war opinion polls”

Same for Vietnam

I don’t care how politicians voted. That’s not what we were discussion. Your insistence that everything in life is a left-right battle makes it very hard to have a discussion.

Thank you Roy. You know much more than me and make my point clearly.