why does David Roche keep banging on about being in sub-4 at altitude shape?

Today on Strava David Roche ran for 2 hours at what appears to be a 15% incline average. Probably heat training on his treadmill. His average heartrate was 145 and climbed up to 155 which he calls Zone 2.

His workout caption:

"Big Z2 breakthrough day. Not sure what's happening right now, but let's ride this wave. Shows: The Studio, Kilian's YT (!!!), and Hacks. The best pop lyric: "I took my s*x life with me now the show ain't f***ing"

Can someone translate that for me?

Oh man I got questions. So he STARTED at a (I dunno when you wanna say where "start" started) 130bpm or some such, then it climbed to 155bpm. Ain't that called heart rate drift and that much would be a "little" over what you'd see in a Z2 workout? Benefit of the doubt yeah Z2 until about 1:12 and then sheeet blows up.

Anyways, I got creek paths to broom.

Sounds to me like he's starting to go Colonel Kurtz (not ''full-on Kurtz'', but he’s definitely flirting with the edge - and that’s what makes watching his trajectory both compelling and a little unnerving). Over the last year or so, he's cultivated a persona of intensity, joy, and emotional vulnerability. He's surrounded himself with a cultish fandom and shuts down anyone who questions his opinions or behavior. He's created an ideological echo chamber, where attention and validation are gained by being more extreme, more contrarian, or more outrageous. He understands his audience’s appetite for emotional highs. Even the most mediocre training run has to be a spectacle or a drama.

But he's starting to believe his own narrative a little too deeply, and that's when this kind of self-mythologizing usually backfires. Presenting yourself as a truth-teller who's broken free from the mainstream is great for the ego until reality smacks you in the face! Since Kilian's masterfully timed and curated 6 hour, 50 mile training run (which puts David's recent 7 hour race performance race to shame), we should expect David's posts to begin to assume an even more intense, manic, exaggerated, and surreal tone.

Kurtz spoke in cryptic, stream-of-consciousness monologues. Similarly, David's current emotional maximalism is starting to feel less like the wise words of a coach and more like a manifesto!

That's my take on his latest workout caption !

The boulder boys bring the exact opposite energy and attitude to their podcast and to running, and that’s exactly why I like them. And yes they take at least a couple digs at Roche every episode, sometimes it’s subtle but that’s what makes it so funny. I wouldn’t get too nervous David is going to “have a shot” at WS… he is selling himself hard and that can sounds convincing, until you realize just how unhinged this guy is. He lives in a world of rainbows and unicorns and feeds off of his wife’s unrelenting worship of him.

All - or at least most - of the Boulder Boys crew used to be coached by Roche or at least followed his coaching closely. They're clearly critical of him now, with Moi seeming to be the most vocal.

It seems like he has become significantly more obnoxious since his success at Leadville last year. Which success was reinforced at Javelina, escalating his obnoxiousness. He got taken down a peg at Big Alta but I think he's so committed to this exaggerated idea of himself and his "moonshot" at Western States that he has to keep going with the whole thing

Tried listening to the BBs - a lot of talking without much substance.

That's a fair take. What draws me to them is their authenticity. Episodes aren't ad-filled, scripted, or edited; instead, it feels like a genuine conversation between a group of elite yet down-to-earth runners who enjoy each other's company and support.

But that's me comparing them to, say, SWAP who will do various takes, creatively edit and even re-record from time to time. I can't relate to David & Megan, who have two kids and can afford a nanny and a housekeeper to allow themselves the comfort of a super flexible schedule where they can train for multiple hours at any time of the day.

I can, however, relate to a young Dad (Adam) working a full time job whose only pocket of time to run falls during a thunderstorm, or a soon-to-be Dad (Moi) who is real about how life will change after the arrival of a newborn, how race scheduling won't be a priority during those first several months, etc.

I honestly can't relate to either of them.

For the BBs: my wife would murder me if I took 90 minutes out of every week to meet up with my boys and record a pod that (checks YouTube) has 2,000 subscribers and probably makes 100 bucks a month (the cost of one of their microphones). Especially if I was a time-crunched athlete - I would be emphasizing my training and my family over making a pod that appears to be a net loss financially and personally.

For SWAP: I can't relate to having a spouse who loves running and would be willing to record a pod for me.

For both: I can't imagine affording a home in Boulder.

I am a big fan of the Boulder Boys. Never heard of half of them until the pod, now I’m genuine fans. Also - the pod is obviously a supplementary PR outlet for their personal brands. Part of the job. And good on them. They’re nailing it.

On David - idk. He actually seems like a positive dude for the world and would be fun to have a beer with. I love the digs he gets from all the pods around and such - just kinda makes him even more of a figure in our sport.

Ankle gate was a bit wild for my taste.. but, this sport has room for people like David. I love the story about his “formula” and he going for it at WSER. I’m all for it - let’s see what happens! Success or failure it’s a cool story - perhaps proven by this thread being over 100 pages long.

David isn't gong to drink a beer with you dude. I doubt he drinks beer. Probably wouldn't touch alcohol with a 10 foot stick these days.

What is apparent is that he's got some "toxic positivity" for the the world and is a fake kind of person in a lot of ways.

Him and Megan certainly will project one thing to cultivate their image and brand, but imo a lot of that fluff is a stretch of the truth and may not even be true.

What is generally true is that it seems like they are out to help themselves at all costs and opportunities (in the guise of pretending that they are a "gift to running" and coaching and being "transparent"). They dupe former and current athletes in SWAP, support biological males in female sports, exaggerate and manipulate treadmill and Zwift workouts, and dish out false hope to runners.

It's gotten people seriously injured and many have been overtrained and underperformed. It's been irresponsible and they should be held accountable. This thread is a testament to the multiple examples of how ridiculous they have acted over the years. In the meantime they have undoubtably benefited a lot financially (not that they need the extra money!) by basically acting like cult leaders.

Congrats for drinking the Kool-Aid though (or maybe you're David himself?)

Key word here is “seems”…

These are good points. A French coach called out Roche last week about his crazy version of heat suit training and wanted to know why a coach would promote such a dangerous method of training:

When asked again to answer the actual question, he goes on to say: "Great points and questions! I think being honest and open about what’s happening behind the scenes is important, while also being honest and open about extreme uncertainties and risks. Endurance sports have been plagued by a lack of transparency forever, and heat suits have become standard practice for cyclists, while runners have been doing versions of it for decades. I always try to share every disclaimer and to avoid being prescriptive or simple-minded about complex biology subjects, but my main goal is to democratize research and practice, trusting people to make their own decisions with their doctor (and coach if they have one). The heat suit research and practice is substantial at this point. It might all be snake oil in the long run, and it’s definitely subject to individual response variation, but I don’t want to hide reality from athletes to protect them from themselves."

Which makes no sense at all! He then went on to talk about this Instagram post on his Patreon podcast. He criticizes this coach for being the kind of coach that doesn't like new things! This is a weird thing to say as heat suit training is an old method that's been shown to be dangerous if done in the way he's doing it.

So, yes, you are right. And this heat suit nonsense seems to be yet another example of Roche acting in an irresponsible and over the top way that's going to get people hurt. He doesn't seem to care that his behavior will be copied and people will get injured and over-trained. It wouldn't surprise me if this stuff backfires on him though - a heat suit AND a weight vest - I'm no expert but that seems unnecessary?

The 'transparency' argument is lame. It's a meaningless, or at least a deeply compromised, idea. Transparency these days is just a brand management tool, rather than a means to reveal uncomfortable truths. Roche let's us see exactly what he wants us to see, and a lot of what he does seems staged. He seems more concerned with what goes viral and boosts his brand and sponsors, rather than what's authentic.

Who is the woman?

They were a podcast before they made a Youtube channel and most of their listeners are listening to the audio only version in a podcast app.

Sorry, I haven't been following, is he doing something different than Killian Jornet and Jakob Ingebrigsten who both posted videos doing heat training recently?

I think it's likely that Killian has been at the cutting edge of this stuff for a decade plus. The public only sees it sporadically like in this video or when he was spotted eating bicarb at UTMB in 2022 and then talked about it after people asked him about it.