Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

So much wrong with this post, it's hard to know where to start. You are basically taking a dump all over Daniels entire lifes work and following some random dudes on the internet with no athletic pedigree or coaching credentials. Even then there's zero evidence for any of the claims made in this thread. Right. Got it. Great.

I feel sorry for the suckers who have got drawn into this absolute nonsense. It shows the state of the left wing liberalism that LRC has become that to be cool you have to follow some off the wall BS to fit in.

Right zero evidence except for consistency and continued fitness progression.

No coaching credentials, ill agree with you there. But those in most cases are pretty overblown since you should understand what you are doing by yourself rather than the need to be guided or motivated by someone else for a fee.

Ive used Daniels extensively in the past. So have a lot of people here. Some good there, some not so good. The not so good: the ridiculous pace for E runs, and the slavish adherence to I workouts. Two great ways to completely stunt your progress and totally inhibit your results when it actually matters.

Unlike you, people just didnt fall off the turnip truck here.

Again, the fact that you keep trying to insert politics rather desperately into this conversation is a pretty big tell that you dont know much about either politics or training.

And by the way, 'suckers' who spent exactly $0 dollars to try a different training approach.

All it cost was their time -- what a tragedy!

Did you try any of this? I don't think so. You instantly jumped on the hate bandwagon because you are stuck in your ways, right? It's really strange that you are so anti this approach but you are incapable of bringing up any studies or proof that suggests this is a bad approach. Claiming that the PB's don't count because they are done at parkrun is also ridiculous. The proof is in the amount of people who try this and are here writing anonymously that it worked.

Thank you fox news analyst for telling me that the 80s I've taken off of my 5k time (16:30 -> 15:10) in the past 4 months isn't real because I didn't train at 5k pace.

Nah man it aint real because real results come from worshipping one idol in the coaching community and doing everything that was written down in one formula for popular consumption.

Daniels coached D3 college athletes. Some did well with the 'Formula', some did not. There were years and years that only the womens team was worth a S. After Daniels stopped coaching i think they had some male success.

Daniels probably wouldnt even follow DRF at this point.

That's how Tinman the conman started out here. This thread will likely be behind a paywall sooner rather than later. Selling these miracle ideas to unsuspecting marks. Someone has to call a spade a spade here and say what nonsense this is. This is just another attempt for a long con to get people to pay for something. I'm almost certain of that.

Ah yes, some more made up race times and improvements! It's so funny when JS makes such claims he is hounded down and strung up. Everyone asks him for evidence. Yet this thread is bizarre in that fact it seems people just take this drivel at face value.

Also, if you think parkrun counts as a time, you are absolutely delusional and need to seek help. It's not a race, for a start. Second, some of those things they try and call courses over in Europe at way short.

Cute conspiracy

You should really teach everyone how to monetize a LRC thread and a Strava group.

But Im sure you are already beating everyone to the punch with your own little project

Nothing miraculous here, just consistent work. You should try it

You should just pick a race and people can come and race you then.

I havent seen a link to your supposed results yet but you are certain others are lying

You do know there is a Strava group dedicated to this thread right? I think a guy in Swiss made it. Like almost 300 people currently. Three. Hundred. They all made fake accounts and decided to make up stuff? Makes total sense!

Someone else pointed out, you can literally go on there and see what guys with success are doing. You can go on there and see sirpoc day in, day out. Doing EXACTLY what he says he is. I'm probably not the only one, but I've also messaged him on Strava and he will always respond, it's not like he is even asking for anything. In fact, I think he even embarrassed it seems people made him the guardian. Yet he isn't ask for a cent and will always help I think when asked. This should be celebrate, not knocked . Maybe you are jealous. Well we will tell you how great you are. That will make you feel better . You are the best. We wish we were all like you. Long live your methods and teach us!!

I've read a tiny bit of this thread. I'm not trying to argue or troll or anything like some. To me it seems like people have realized that there's a lot to be gained by running at threshold pace for a few reasons. It's easier on your body to repeat week after week. It provides the most bang for buck of all aerobic training. The workouts themselves are easier to execute as you're never truly straining. Does this sound right?

Before anyone ever muttered the phrase "Norwegian Method" or "Double Threshold," I experimented with my training after college. I was BAD at "tempo" runs in college. We'd do like 3–4 miles @ 5:10-5:30. I blew up so many times. When I could complete them on pace, it was damn near a race effort. After college I trained on my own, and found out that if I ran around 5:50-6:10 pace, I could do that once or twice a week for a tempo run and it was not only easier, it was kind of enjoyable. I didn't even have a GPS watch, my pace was just me guessing based off experience and occasionally doing a few laps of the track in the middle of the run as a pace check. I would go up to 35 minutes doing this, getting in more volume than ever at a "tempo" pace. I referred to this as my "comfortably hard tempo run." I went on to set some middle distance PRs incorporating this into my training. I still did some 5k pace work, and of course I did race pace and speed development work too, but I think it was important that these weekly tempo sessions were something I could do over and over again, and get a tiny bit better each week.

Did I accidentally stumble into the "Norwegian Method"? Was that threshold effort? Was my mind in the right place? Curious what people here might think.

imo the big takeway from Bakken and the Ingebrigtsen's should be that many elites have been pushing too hard in workouts. Do lots of work but keep it easy enough that you don't get worn down. Stay fresh! 'Norwegian approach' is just a take on Kenyan training. You figured it out on your own, you didn't stumble.

Right. Got it. You ran in the 16:00s as a master. great. Thats almost worth bragging about.

What’s your training like, right wing A hat?

or should we take from your lack of any contribution on the subject that you are throwing away a couple hundred bucks a month online?

shows that the right wing in this country cant wait to worship a single person and flush a fist full of dollars straight down the toilet because they can’t separate what they like from their personalities

To some extent it is the opposite. People weren’t doing enough hard work during the base phase. Too many easy miles and not enough around marathon pace and faster. Heck how many people were doing 25x400 at sub 10k pace? Our 20-25 min tempo runs weren’t generating anywhere near enough stimulus. And nobody was really doing repeat miles at 5k pace during their base training.

If Bakken&company released their workouts with times instead of lactate, would any of us be calling the shorter stuff as threshold work?

It sounds like it! sirpoc84 and shirtboy2022 have said it's the ability to just get as much in near the limit per week w/o going over the limit. For those who have time, double thresh could still work, but for the working man/woman singles (2-3x a week) work, in addition to a LR. EZ runs elsewhere...

There are so many weird programs out there that claim to get you faster on low mileage too--Furman FIRST, RLRF and the Bridger Run 3:00 Marathon plan (which is basically trying to have you run 4-10 miles at 6:40 pace in graduated weeks on top of your EZ runs), Yassos and LRs. There's too much, too soon.

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The Norwegian method seems so simple, yet not so easy to execute for some--I think it's ingrained in some runners that "all intensity, all the time," is the way to go...

I like that trolls have tried to invade this these for attention, but they just get put in their box by these "RaNDoM DuDeS" on the internet. JS even couldn't work his magic in the middle pages, Lexel comes and goes, anonymous guys have a go. But the core of the thread keeps ticking along.

Does anyone know if the Podcast is happening? I've seen Conversations about running and the Running Public mentioned. The former is cool, is one of my favourite regular podcasts.

I do have a question about paces though. Is this accounting for super shoes? What is sirpoc running in? I don't mean to be a pain , but the paces as a conversion of race speed, would make a huge difference based on shoes, in my experience. Even running 15k pace for 10*1k would be tricky if you ran your race to convert that 15k pace on in vapoflys, versus doing your workouts in something like Pegs (just to use extreme example).

Not sure about sirpoc specifically, but one of spreadsheets in the strava group has a pace adjustment factor that could be used. Just have to pick a % that you feel is fair for your individual difference between super and traditional shoes

The trolls in this thread do make me laugh. I always raise a smile every few days when I try and check in on this thread over my morning coffee and they have tried to get a bite of the fishing hook. But, I'm general this thread has been good natured and in the spirit it's intended. The thing that always makes me laugh is when trolls call us "geeks" or "losers" . As if coming on a running forum is cool in the first place, or as if running is even cool to the general population (spoiler, it's not, they think we are ALL losers 🤣🤣)

That's a good question/ point regarding the shoes. But my initial post, I believe still stands as a good guide. Take 1k repeats at 12-15k pace. It was based on my race time, in average carbon shoes (original rocket x) and my workouts were mainly in average carbon shoes (carbon x 3). I'm using faster shoes now, but, proportionally the % of race pace is going to remain the same, the faster shoes just give me a proportional boost in both the workout and the race. I hope that answers your question, but it was actually a good point and shoes are definitely a huge factor here. The narrow sub threshold window we are running in ( if you are using pace as a guide) would be very much affected if you are doing all your workouts in average but comfortable daily trainer, but your race paces coming from elite super shoes.

This is where, obviously, absolutely ideally in the best case scenario, you would measure lactate, as they will absolutely tell you where you are, rather than guesstimating for practicality purposes via the use of my pace guides. As remember , there is not actually any real thing as a sub threshold pace, it's just a mixture of different paces and combinations of times that get you into a sub lactate state. The only thing that can actually tell you 100% for sure is the lactate meter. It must be noted , however, I haven't really deviated away from the paces I shared originally. I'll do 1k repeats today and I still will be targeting 12-15k pace. I also haven't bothered measuring lactate in a long, long time. I got to the point where 90% of my runs when I tested lactate, were in and around the numbers I wanted to see. So I basically said to myself, that'll do. Saved me the money of buying strips and just accepted if 9/10 runs got me to where I need to be based on following paces, I'm happy with that.

As for the podcast. I really don't know why people are that interested in my training. But I have had 3 people message me so far about pods, but unfortunately my laziness to really respond properly or provide a time to do it (this was mostly around Christmas when I was busy) meant nothing every happened, despite the interest. Unlike Hard2find, I'm not that hard to find so I'm sure if anyone is interested they can contact me and we can try and actually arrange something. I won't mention the name, but one of the podders I have a brief chat with over email must have read this thread, but not really understood it. Or probably just briefly saw "Norwegian" and started talking Jakob etc. I don't know why, but this still keeps coming up. This is basically closer (in fact it definitely is) to what a British cycling time trialist might do, than to what Jakob does and his weekly schedule with doubles. What I still envisioned all this for, is older ish runners who have a busy life and maybe could run once a day for an hour and slightly longer at the weekend. If I was doing what Jakob was doing or what Bakken suggested via doubles, I would absolutely not be running any of these paces mentioned. Singles. This is very much singles and 3x workouts 3 different days a week .

Ah yes that spreadsheet is awesome. I'm so sorry , I can't remember the guys name who made it. But it's brilliant. It's in the Strava group somewhere and yes, you are right, there's a few adjustment factors in it. IMO it's a must have tool, if you are really going to commit to this. The other one is Hard2find's incredible spreadsheet, which will help you plan out sessions etc. Both freely available. I hope the fox news guy posting yesterday is reading. Yes , free! Ha ha and those tools are probably better than 99% of stuff on the internet that the fitness community will try charge you a fortune for.