I don`t think Hassan is a cheat. If you take a look at what it takes in training to reach 3:52 at 1500m you get the figures ; maxVO2 intervals e.g 20 x 400m at 69 sec , LT- intervals at 5:03 mile pace . There is still plenty of room to run faster and still
staying clean.
Wow she practically has a meltdown in the interview after the race. This is the personal toll of cheaters that besmirch the name of the sport...the higher you achieve the more your efforts are questioned. In this case, Sifan (probably unwittingly) hitched her star to the most disliked man in the sport, and it all came to a head at a very inopportune time.
joanve wrote:
Side note, unreal level of sportsmanship of Shelby Houlihan to shake Sifan's hand at the end of that farce. I would have just walked away. Shelby had a great day but she should have a medal.
Having watched a replay, she was the only one who did; but not so surprising - two NOP runners. The way that Hassan was ignored by the rest of the field as she celebrated was uncannily like what happened with Flojo in Seoul.
bartholomew_maxwell wrote:
I can't pull off the aerials and acrobatics of Simone Biles...therefore...Simone must be doping.
+1
Usually you see such a imperial/colonial exceptionalist attitude from Europe and its kin.
Yg102 wrote:
bartholomew_maxwell wrote:
I can't pull off the aerials and acrobatics of Simone Biles...therefore...Simone must be doping.
+1
Usually you see such a imperial/colonial exceptionalist attitude from Europe and its kin.
Most of us can't think like Einstein either but we aren't trying to discredit him because he was a genius and we aren't. Envy is a poor explanation for why there are questions - legitimate questions - about Hassan's performance.
YMMV wrote:
Wow she practically has a meltdown in the interview after the race. This is the personal toll of cheaters that besmirch the name of the sport...the higher you achieve the more your efforts are questioned. In this case, Sifan (probably unwittingly) hitched her star to the most disliked man in the sport, and it all came to a head at a very inopportune time.
Well not unwittingly.
And I doubt that Salazar is "the most disliked man", but yeah, lots of people despise that drug cheat. Only on letsrun you find all the PR shills...
Meant to write: ... I doubt that Salazar is "the most disliked man in the sport" ...
Salazar -dope or no dope -is the best technical coach on the planet.
1. Develops range, and reboots speed and running technique conducive to maximize holding native speed for as long as possible.
2. Salazar took a moderately trained Hassan and maximized her potential.
3. Salazar leaves no stone unturned when preparing his athletes.
4. Hassan has been tested ad infinitum, incl. random tests, and has always come out clean.
Those who critique her style and arm carriage, forget that she is biomechanically very efficient and has an inbuilt sense of pace and fuel economy.
She deserves more support, not condemnation.
i completely agree. we should be thanking him for training athletes who can complete against the east africans. instead we have a bunch of so called drug experts who slander not only the coach but the athletes when not one has ever failed a drug test. he broke the rules but move on. without his tutelage our distance running sucks as compared to other countries. in the UK the attitude is to reinforce that athletes. here it is to cut them down.
It's clear too that Hissan has lost weight prior to her breakthrough.
https://images.app.goo.gl/jJmBAWtrUBSTwaQV8
https://images.app.goo.gl/nxXYvvzKjqdVSXv17
https://images.app.goo.gl/33zA99p5dJ3Rsp169
Likewise Stafford.
https://images.app.goo.gl/VXnPNb5bqzhsrFv17
Ghost1 wrote:
Salazar -dope or no dope -is the best technical coach on the planet.
1. Develops range, and reboots speed and running technique conducive to maximize holding native speed for as long as possible.
2. Salazar took a moderately trained Hassan and maximized her potential.
3. Salazar leaves no stone unturned when preparing his athletes.
4. Hassan has been tested ad infinitum, incl. random tests, and has always come out clean.
Those who critique her style and arm carriage, forget that she is biomechanically very efficient and has an inbuilt sense of pace and fuel economy.
She deserves more support, not condemnation.
C'mon now...in Russia they say the same thing about their iconic coach Vladimir Mokhnev, who is also banned for doping violations. Lol. Mokhnev is noted for taking mediocre athletes and turning them into top tier competitors.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rferl.org/amp/28193936.htmlRussian Cocktails wrote:
Ghost1 wrote:
Salazar -dope or no dope -is the best technical coach on the planet.
1. Develops range, and reboots speed and running technique conducive to maximize holding native speed for as long as possible.
2. Salazar took a moderately trained Hassan and maximized her potential.
3. Salazar leaves no stone unturned when preparing his athletes.
4. Hassan has been tested ad infinitum, incl. random tests, and has always come out clean.
Those who critique her style and arm carriage, forget that she is biomechanically very efficient and has an inbuilt sense of pace and fuel economy.
She deserves more support, not condemnation.
C'mon now...in Russia they say the same thing about their iconic coach Vladimir Mokhnev, who is also banned for doping violations. Lol. Mokhnev is noted for taking mediocre athletes and turning them into top tier competitors.
Whatever happened to innocent unless proven guilty? Or does that only apply to white people?
That’s nothing compared to Wang Junxia.
Over the same number of days she ran a faster 1500, a much faster 10,000 and threw in a couple 3000m world records in between those races.
Hasan’s week makes what Wang did so much better.
Armstronglivs wrote:
LM wrote:
You convientely don't provide an answer to the question I posed on this page.
And yes plenty of pages on Alberto. All of which more or less confirm that Alberto almost certainly committed doping violations.
You miss the point - an XX female cannot have a hormonal profile anything like a man. Her testosterone levels cannot naturally go above around 2nml (compared to 7-29nml for males - who on average have 15 times the testosterone level of a female). Hypoandrogenic outliers may have 2-4 nml, hence the IAAF limit of 5nml. This is the whole Caster Semenya debate. She is DSD male however.
The only way an XX female can have anything approaching male levels of testosterone is if they are 46XY, like Semenya, or are doped to the gills. Take your pick.
You're still dodging my first point. Just throwing that out there. Yet to hear a satisfactory answer on how to handle that.
As for this response I did not miss the point. You just acted as if being female is somehow discrete and their are are only a few categories with defined testosterone ranges. Also many hormones besides testosterone matter. They all exist on an a analog continuum. You can have all kinds of genetic variation within an XX human yielding varying levels of testosterone. Variation leading above 2 are certainly possible due to genetic and epigenetic factors. Many other hormones can also vary as can body structures and of course talent (VO2/efficiency/fractional utilization).
All of this means we can have a wide variation. Given the decent number of women that have run near 14:11 it's unlikely they were all 1 in a billion outliers at the absolute tip of everything being maxed out.
Same for guys. We know guys like Bekele or Kipchoge or Froome from cycling are no other near optimal humans. They don't have 85-90 VO2 combined with 25% GME combined with a fractional utilization approaching 90%. An athlete like that is 10% or more beyond the best we've seen from even king dopers like Lance.
So, again, I ask....how do you know Hassan isn't that level of talent? How do you know Kipchoge isn't that level of talent? How do you know Bekele isn't that level of talent?
Yes, of course the odds are much, much greater that these are all doped.
The problem I have is that even the most insane doped performances are still well within the level of what's achievable using top human physiological values.
What happens when that person comes along with that talent and blows everyone way by 20s in the 5000?
Sbc wrote:
It's clear too that Hissan has lost weight prior to her breakthrough.
https://images.app.goo.gl/jJmBAWtrUBSTwaQV8https://images.app.goo.gl/nxXYvvzKjqdVSXv17https://images.app.goo.gl/33zA99p5dJ3Rsp169Likewise Stafford.
https://images.app.goo.gl/VXnPNb5bqzhsrFv17https://images.app.goo.gl/VagmJnj5W3YbGzUWAhttps://images.app.goo.gl/bANUwQKAjf64Wzw29
And there you have it. Increase in mileage and 2-3lbs of weight loss (probably 1-2% of BW) giving 1-2% drop in time...
....and you go from 3:56 to 3:51. Or knock 20-30s off your 5000. Or 2' off your half.
Armstronglivs wrote:
What I’ve Learned wrote:
There seem to be a lot of failed D1 runners and coaches that frequent these boards and immediately trash any great performance as doping, simply because they failed in their professional aspirations and are not as successful runners such as Hassan, in this case. Really sad, and one of the main reasons why this sport is not appealing to the masses.
For the record, Hassan is one of the last in this field I’d suspect of doping. WHAT A PERFORMANCE.
The textbook fan response for every off-the-charts achievement before the bust.
We’ve found one of the failed D1 coaches/runners...
bladerunner wrote:
Scorpion_runner wrote:
Doped to the Gills. and not the GOAT.
All the runners that she had hard trouble beating, just for her to blow them away at 3.51, and the rest of them ran natural PB
Disgusting. This is up there with Ayana's run.
She lead from beginning to end, then had an extra gear in the last lap?
Not normal or natural. ....3:51? after doing the 10000m?
This is up there with Mary Decker who Hassan was patterned after By Al .....and a doper
Where to begin? She won in the diamond league and ran 3:56 long before joining NOP. Doped to the gills? Then you're saying that testing doesn't work. Why even drug test?
She didn't take the lead until the 300m mark. Anyone who watched her run the mile this year has seen that she starts slow and runs each lap faster than the last.
Who are you to decide what's normal or natural? The 10k was 8 days ago and only the last mile was hard. She only ran 30:17 - just a few seconds faster than Shalane Flanagan ran in 2008.
BTW, Mary Decker tested positive in her 40's and a large part of her career happened before testing was even done. Name ANY NOP athlete who has tested positive. You can't.
Finally, Ayana races a few times a year, at most. Hassan races a lot and is getting tested a lot. Anyone who's watched Hassan on the Diamond league 3:55 and 8:18 3k, knew that this was possible.
Letsrun would be crying ‘doped to the gills’ whether or not she was on NOP.
NOP has no allegations of EPO.
She front ran like Pre, your blue-collar, tough-as-nails-but-but-never-medaled idol.
You are an impossible crowd to please, unless ben true is racing.
Just enjoy a fast race. She had 8 days to recover and had a plan to do this for months.
-L-carnitine
bartholomew_maxwell wrote:
Whatever happened to innocent unless proven guilty? Or does that only apply to white people?
Yup if she were white they would be saying how confident and courageous she was to race the way that she did. Sadly, she’s not white so it’s not celebrated.
LM wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
You miss the point - an XX female cannot have a hormonal profile anything like a man. Her testosterone levels cannot naturally go above around 2nml (compared to 7-29nml for males - who on average have 15 times the testosterone level of a female). Hypoandrogenic outliers may have 2-4 nml, hence the IAAF limit of 5nml. This is the whole Caster Semenya debate. She is DSD male however.
The only way an XX female can have anything approaching male levels of testosterone is if they are 46XY, like Semenya, or are doped to the gills. Take your pick.
You're still dodging my first point. Just throwing that out there. Yet to hear a satisfactory answer on how to handle that.
As for this response I did not miss the point. You just acted as if being female is somehow discrete and their are are only a few categories with defined testosterone ranges. Also many hormones besides testosterone matter. They all exist on an a analog continuum. You can have all kinds of genetic variation within an XX human yielding varying levels of testosterone. Variation leading above 2 are certainly possible due to genetic and epigenetic factors. Many other hormones can also vary as can body structures and of course talent (VO2/efficiency/fractional utilization).
All of this means we can have a wide variation. Given the decent number of women that have run near 14:11 it's unlikely they were all 1 in a billion outliers at the absolute tip of everything being maxed out.
Same for guys. We know guys like Bekele or Kipchoge or Froome from cycling are no other near optimal humans. They don't have 85-90 VO2 combined with 25% GME combined with a fractional utilization approaching 90%. An athlete like that is 10% or more beyond the best we've seen from even king dopers like Lance.
So, again, I ask....how do you know Hassan isn't that level of talent? How do you know Kipchoge isn't that level of talent? How do you know Bekele isn't that level of talent?
Yes, of course the odds are much, much greater that these are all doped.
The problem I have is that even the most insane doped performances are still well within the level of what's achievable using top human physiological values.
What happens when that person comes along with that talent and blows everyone way by 20s in the 5000?
You are confused. XX females cannot have anything like the testosterone levels of a male. This is not a continuum - there is no overlap between XX and XY when it comes to T-levels; male levels are 15 times those of XX females.
Hassan is not androgenic; if she has high testosterone that's courtesy of Alberto but if it's above 5nml she'd certainly fail the biopassport.
I'm not aware of any other point you have made. Whatever it might have been, it wasn't relevant to this discussion.