Sub 3HR Fall Marathon Thread - The quest for less amateur glory begins?

Birkoboy wrote:

Hi guys,looks a good thread this one so hope it keeps going.

Looking at sub 3 at Barcelona next year,got berlin next week target 3:06.

Been running for 4 years after 20 years of doing nothing,now 47 so not too long left.HM best of 1:24:03 2 weeks ago but had a 20 mile race the week before so should be beatable,shorter times all indicate sub 3 so just need more miles consistently I think.

Wow. You must be really strong physically. That's heavy racing. How come you race so much. You'd most certainly break 3 in berlin if you'd skipped one of those races. If you have the long runs in the bag. What was the idea about your racing?

Good job! And good luck in Berlin.

Northener wrote:

Wow. You must be really strong physically. That's heavy racing. How come you race so much. You'd most certainly break 3 in berlin if you'd skipped one of those races. If you have the long runs in the bag. What was the idea about your racing?

Good job! And good luck in Berlin.

I like to race a half 3 weeks out to give me an idea of where I am,the 20 was a replacement for a long run and I decided to do MP to see how it felt.Sub 3 always felt unrealistic until the last couple of months but seems possible now.

Birkoboy wrote:

I like to race a half 3 weeks out to give me an idea of where I am,the 20 was a replacement for a long run and I decided to do MP to see how it felt.Sub 3 always felt unrealistic until the last couple of months but seems possible now.

That's the thing. Racing a half 3wks out would definitely affect my marathon race. Given that I race it. 3wks out I'd rather do it as Marathon pace. But that's me. I like 5-6wks out for the half.

Anyway. You're in good shape so if you feel good come race day in Berlin, do the first half in 1.29 and set yourself up for a shot on the second part.

Also, if you're in the UK, I can recommend copenhagen half next year. Really a great race! We can go for a beer afterwards :-)

Northener wrote:

Birkoboy wrote:

I like to race a half 3 weeks out to give me an idea of where I am,the 20 was a replacement for a long run and I decided to do MP to see how it felt.Sub 3 always felt unrealistic until the last couple of months but seems possible now.

That's the thing. Racing a half 3wks out would definitely affect my marathon race. Given that I race it. 3wks out I'd rather do it as Marathon pace. But that's me. I like 5-6wks out for the half.

Anyway. You're in good shape so if you feel good come race day in Berlin, do the first half in 1.29 and set yourself up for a shot on the second part.

Also, if you're in the UK, I can recommend copenhagen half next year. Really a great race! We can go for a beer afterwards :-)

What is the consensus on a race 4 weeks before a marathon? Worth racing it or not - likely will not taper or anything for the HM, but obviously curious to see if I can achieve a PR.

Would going out first half @ MP and then "all out" second half make more sense?

runnerchef wrote:

What is the consensus on a race 4 weeks before a marathon? Worth racing it or not - likely will not taper or anything for the HM, but obviously curious to see if I can achieve a PR.

Would going out first half @ MP and then "all out" second half make more sense?

It depends I guess. If you do not taper and race hard you might be looking at a week to recover since you go into the race with heavy marathon trained legs. But you might also recover fast depending on your physique. I'd be "off" for 5-6 days.

I guess being +40 is a factor here. 10yrs younger, no sweat.

If I was in your situation I'd run it progressively starting at MP.

runnerchef wrote:

What is the consensus on a race 4 weeks before a marathon? Worth racing it or not - likely will not taper or anything for the HM, but obviously curious to see if I can achieve a PR.

I'm scheduling a HM three weeks before my marathon. I'll take a couple easy days before, then race it.

If I'm running a half marathon, then it's gonna be at HM pace from the start to the finish.

If you're committed to a training plan, and recovery from the half marathon will interfere with a scheduled workout, then maybe don't race. But I believe there are substantial fitness gains to be had from a full effort, and will consider the race as integral to my training.

Three or four weeks is plenty of recovery time, especially going into a marathon taper.

last chance runner wrote:

[ I believe there are substantial fitness gains to be had from a full effort, and will consider the race as integral to my training.

To be clear, however, I am running the HM because I want to compete against the local competition. I like to race.

last chance runner wrote:

To be clear, however, I am running the HM because I want to compete against the local competition. I like to race.

I find 3 weeks is enough for a half,I dont taper into it,and race it as hard as I can,nearly always PB as I'm marathon fit then ease into marathon taper,worked well the last 2 years and dropped from 3:31-3:11 and 1:29-1:24.

1 day I will have to train and taper for a half and see what I can do.

I'm thinking I might recognise Birkoboy ;-) Don't tell anyone I'm browsing this thread, I'm strictly 3:0x focussed!!

Agree though, recovery from a raced half when the eyes are still set on a marathon prize just a few weeks further on really shouldn't be too much of a challenge. 13.1m really isn't that far....

Training the week of 9/15:

Sunday - 6 miles (8:22 to 7:01 progression)

Monday - 8 miles (8:03 to 6:50 progression)

Tuesday - 12 miles (Averaged 7:25 pace, 8:22/7:57/7:35/7:38/7:18/6:50/7:08/6:55/6:42/7:40/7:55/7:14. Didn't feel great, IT band was tightening up around mile 8 so decided to abort a planned hard 3 miles close and jog it in).

Wednesday - 7 miles (Traveling. Probably 7:30 pace but there were a ton of stair climbs to get over highway overpasses and stuff so hard to say)

Thursday - 7 miles. Traveling. Probably 7:30 pace. Ditto on the highway overpasses.

Friday - 6 miles. (7:54 to 6:30 progression).

Saturday - 16 miles. (8:00/7:14/7:16/6:48/6:39/7:04/6:35/6:42/6:46/6:47/7:56/7:31/7:54/7:36/7:44/8:15. Was planning on a slower day but felt good and decided in the second mile to push the first 10 a bit and simulate something akin to the first 10 of HM. Met my friend at 10 and we cooled down 6).

Total = 62 miles. Up from 53 last week. Most miles I have ever run. Besides the small knee flair up I feel pretty strong honestly. Planning on holding it through next week and then tapering for my HM on 10/13.

Question for the group. I was thinking about jumping into a full marathon on 11/10. Here is my reasoning...

Pros:

1) I am in pretty good shape and there is no guarantee the weather will cooperate for me over the winter.

2) My wife is pregnant with our second! Due date is this upcoming spring (early may) assuming everything works out. Originally I was planning on a spring full and trying to crack 3 hours but this may be more difficult now.

3) I was planning on just running it to finish. I would probably just try to hold onto 7:50 - 8 minute pace. Running a marathon has always been a goal of mine.

4) Legs felt pretty fresh after the 16 today

5) I would still have 4 weeks post HM to try to get in a 20 miler to make sure I am not doing something catastrophically stupid.

Cons:

1) I run the very real risk of completely bonking and having a horrible experience.

2) The course is pretty hard/hilly but is really the only option for me at this point.

Thoughts?

Northerner - Fantastic job in the Copenhagen half. 1:22:52 is super solid at any age, and I definitely like your odds for a sub-3. I'm also 47, and I've been taking my easy days seriously, too. For the most part I've been keeping them right around 8 mins/mile. Since I'm doing the Jack Daniels 2Q program, I just have 2 "big" days a week and I think that works pretty well for me...at least it has in the past. I haven't sub-3ed in 3 years (due to injury and a late build-up), so I've added more easy miles to the regimen I followed 3 years ago to see if that helps me out.

runnerchef - I've always performed better at shorter distances than the marathon distance, and so my predicted marathon time would be overly optimistic if I based it on a 10k time. Do you typically use a 10k to predict your marathon goal time? Regardless, you're gonna hit sub-3 like a beast. The calculator at

https://runsmartproject.com/calculator/

says your 37:20 is good for 2:52:30. This calculator says 2:51:44:

https://lukehumphreyrunning.com/hmmcalculator/race_equivalency_calculator.php

.

OK, here's the latest in the sub-3 saga. I'm still male, 47, and 5'8". My weight has gone from 149 to 146 in the past 3 weeks, so progress there, although maybe I'm dehydrated right now.

I was overseas for a week in the middle of the past 2 weeks, so I had to deal with time change, excessive walking during the day, lack of sleep, etc.

Week of 9/8:

Su - 12.93E @ 7:43

Mo - 6.12E @ 8:03

Tu - (16.76) 8E+5*(1k 5k w/3 min jg)+6*(200R w/200jg)+2E (8E @ 8:11 + 1ks @ 3:42, 3:41, 3:40, 3:40, 3:40 + 200s @ 41.17, 41.42, 42.54, 42.54, 41.29, 41.01 + 2E @ 7:45)

We - 9.04E @ 8:04

Th - 0.0 (Traveling)

Fr - 9.78E @ 8:10

Sa - 20.61E @ 7:42 (Plan called for 20E, so this was OK. Was going to 10E+10M, but my legs were toast due to walking all day. Also, 1,227/1,191 ft elev gain/loss, which I'm not accustomed to!)

Total miles: 75.24

Week of 9/15:

Su - 9.14E @ 7:33

Mo - 13.13E @ 7:50

Tu - 4.03E @ 7:48

We - (15) 6E+5*(1k 5k w/3 min E) + 4E (6E @ 8:09 + 1ks @ 3:37, 3:39, 3:42, 3:44, 3:43 + 4E @ 7:59) "Jetlag special". Plane landed and I ran immediately. A bit warm, too.

Th - 7.55E @ 7:55

Fr - 6.20E @ 8:11

Sa - (18.0) 3E+6M+1T+6M+2E (3E @ 7:26 + 6M @ 6:41 + 1T @ 6:32 + 6M @ 6:58 (*) + 3E @ 7:54)

Total miles: 73.05

OK, Saturday was supposed to be my big "marathon pace test run". 6:42 was the pace I wanted. I was on pace for the first 9 miles and then slowly veered away from goal pace and blew up on the last of the 13 miles (7:27). If we omit that mile and use the first 12, the average pace is 6:45. With it included, I'm looking at 6:48.

Now, there have been some extenuating circumstances. My legs have been beat up all week from walking around during the trip, jetlag, etc. , although Friday was probably the first day the legs felt more or less normal. Saturday they felt good at the beginning. I got a late start and it was hot, humid and sunny (at least it was for a Michigander). It was probably about 78F and 83% humidity during the M portion...I actually am good with a 6:45-48 pace, but what concerns me is the sudden slowdown at the 13th mile. How much should I read into that? My HR was just fine (154, and I usually avg in the 160s when I race a marathon all out), but I was so hot and thirsty by that point I can't help but think that it was related to the weather more than poor pacing...would be interested in some opinions on that. I'm 3 weeks out (Chicago) and no more big workouts in the plan...

I ran a similar workout (3E+12M+2E) 3 weeks ago, and averaged 6:44 for the 12M, but now that I look again at it I notice the last mile was 6:58...so I had suddenly faded on that run, as well. 66F 60% humidity, so much more comfortable that day.

Of course, all of this is in the middle of 70+ mile weeks...I will be tapered & fresh on race day, and theoretically the temp should be cooler...still I wonder if I should be more conservative in my pacing based on these findings.

highhoppingworm

I think you would be absolutely fine running a full marathon at an easy pace, and 7:50-8 min/mile seems very conservative for you. I was less prepared than you are right now when I ran my first marathon, and I managed a 3:21 in spite of completely bonking and having to walk for a bit at the 23rd mile. 16 miles was my longest run to that point, and I'm pretty sure I never broke 50 mpw during the relatively brief buildup.

So go for it! It will give you some experience and will give you some perspective on what the marathon is all about!!

highhoppingworm - good luck for your HM. I regularly build up to a very hard 7 mile tempo on a loop course with a small hill on it, and have consistently found myself to run about 12s per mile faster than whatever I can manage for that in a HM race. If you ran 6:24 average, for 10 miles, over a hillier course, I think you are doing yourself a disservice if you do not target at LEAST 6:05-6:10 pace - if I did that workout, I would expect to be close to 1:20 for the HM, maybe just under on a great day. Don't do out at 1:25 pace, man - you have a great race in you.

11 weeks out from CIM.

My goal was to start adding structured/specific workouts this past week but life and weather had other plans so I was forced to a lot of treadmill and some easy runs with headlamp on shitty terrain ? still got a lot of miles in though, and about to do an 18 mile LR with hopefully some MP at the end.

Did a 10K last Sunday and was discouraged to run pretty slow (6:36 pace), I knew going in that I wasn’t gonna “race” it all out but was still hoping for mid 6:20s in a tempo effort.

Goal the next 8-9 weeks is 5+ 20 milers, and a lot of LT work in the form of tempos and 2 mile repeats. Getting in the miles is never an issue (80-90 mpw), but I gotta get my butt to run workouts faster than MP

Ladies and gents, another week completed and four to go. The previous week I peaked at 63 miles, 50 this past week.

Last Sunday's track workout was 5 x 600m at 5K goal pace (5:22 mile pace). Well off that pace this morning as I raced a low-key 5k, splits were 5:50, 5:42, 5:42. I ran behind a young guy for the first mile, from there a solo effort for the win.

Tuesday's long run went well. I started with an easy mile then averaged 7:50 for 15 miles, cranked 4 miles at 7:13 pace, and jogged another mile to total 21 miles.

Thursday's medium-long run was a 12-mile progression closing with 6:50, 6:45, 6:16, then a 2-mile jog for 14 total.

The stats:

43-year-old male. 50 miles total (Sun-Sat), 4 weeks to go.

Sunday- 5x600m with 2-min jog 2:02 1:58 1:59 2:02 2:01

Monday- 5 miles at 8:08 pace

Tues- 21 miles (20 at 7:43 avg plus 1 mi)

Wednesday- 4 miles easy

Thurs- 14 miles (12 at 7:08 avg plus 2 mi)

Friday- 2 miles with 6 strides

Saturday- off

Today- 2 mile warmup, 5K 17:48

highhopping - Good luck for your HM. As for November marathon, I say go for it. Worst case, you crash and walk some. Would be a low-pressure introduction that will help when you really target one.

toadlips - For sure no worries about slowing the last mile. Tired legs, travel, weather.

Good running folks.

That’s a great week when you factor in volume, tired legs, heat and travel. I’m 10 years younger and no way would I be able to do that! You are in the middle of training and just remember that the taper and race day magic are wonderful things. In my last HM, leading up to it I couldn’t string together more than 4 miles at 6’25. Come race day I strung together 13.1 at 6’22 pace.

My only comment would maybe be your easy days. I know those paces are within the prescribed easy pace range but maybe they are a titch fast? From my own experience i feel like I’m trucking if running sub 8 on easy/recovery days. I’m more likely to be at 8’30. Something to consider. Easing off on pace on recovery days might help the rest of the week.

Oh not to mention that elevation gain on that 20 miler! No way you see anything like that on pancake flat chicago

Good luck everyone, training looks good! Not running much anymore, writing instead. New novel comes out October 1, but available for preorder on Amazon. Take a look, good inspiration for training. Enjoy!

https://indiereader.com/book_review/racing-shadows/

https://www.amazon.com/Racing-Shadows-James-K-Dill/dp/1627202420/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=racing+shadows&qid=1569066569&sr=8-1

highhoppingworm:

Congrats to you and your mrs!

You seem to be in good shape. If one of your big goals is to run the marathon -go for it. Don't put too much pressure on yourself if it's your first marathon. Just go and use the first one to gain experience for the future. Prepare for the fact that it can go well, but also prepare for a rough ride. You never know how it goes first time. Also, solid miles last week! A lot of progression runs. Maybe you should include some recovery jogs in there as well?

Toadlips:

Thank you! Yeah, the race went really well. Have had some problems with colds, but managed to fight it off and perform. Need to stay healthy now until race in 4wks.

I've used Daniels as well before. Works well for me as well. Wanted to try something new and decided to try lower mileage, but big sessions. It's hard work!

Your training looks solid! Even if you travelled. I'm with the others on your question about slowing the last mile. Don't worry, you have heavy training behind you and come race day you will be ready.

last chance runner:

Nice week! Good job with the 5k. For me, that's a great time. I'd be happy if I could dip under 18. I suffer a lot in shorter races as I'm more slow twitch.