One of the things I used to do is give myself the opportunity to go out too fast in a 5K every now and then to learn what that feels like. I think that’s what helped RRR on the other thread. Stone’s recommendation to practice being more aggressive is a good one but I would make it a bit more clear...go out with the leader(s) in these small 5Ks at whatever expense.
too hot 3 wrote:
I will say though that the race plan was a bit unclear. Stone, did you want OR to race for the win (go out with Juan) or be shot out of a canon at mile 1.5 because those are potentially two different things. To be shot out of a canon halfway requires that you start out out conservatively but sometimes going for the win, as in this case, will stretch you beyond your means or at least force you to take a few more risks early on.
I was confused about the same thing, my guess was what i put in bold above. (yes I read stone's response to this)
As others have mentioned OR, don't weigh too much on this, or any other non-goal race. With the hills I would say you ran it well (not knowing these hills, but knowing hills).
-RS
Thanks so much guys for the comments--they are VERY helpful. A special thanks to Pappy for his detailed analysis.
Well, here is this morning's story...go up on the late side (around 8:00), and felt decent enough when putting weight on the right leg. Immediately, I shot into outsiderunner mode, and thought...why not get in some miles?...you are late, but could get some in. Ate a Honey Stinger waffle, (very handy in a pinch), streched some, and was out in about 30 minutes.
It stung some in the first 3-4 miles, especially on the downhills, but I got going...and going. Ended up running 13.13 in 1:33:13 (7:06 overall pace), avoiding any and all steep hills...7:43 --> 6:40, and that run really made me feel better about things. I sped up some in the last three miles, simply because I needed to get to work. The shin okay when done and is walkable right now...decent enough. I have been using some arnica gel on it. In any case, I guess you can say there will never be another outsiderunner. ;-)
All the best...
outsiderunner wrote:
That was pretty disappointing. 18:02 and second overall. Very hilly, but I should be better than that. On a fair or flat course I should be around 17-flat. On today’s course, I gather something like 17:25 or 17:30. It was pretty impossible to get behind someone and run the race plan, but I do not think I could have anyway, as I did not have much left in the last mile anyway.
Will be happy to give more details when I have time. Off to work now...
Hold on, when have you run 17 flat?
When have you run 17:25?
The guy that finished 12 seconds ahead of you finished 9 seconds ahead a few weeks ago and you expect to finish 25 seconds ahead of him now?
I ran 17:26 three weeks ago (on Dec. 2), with a sizable negative split and feeling good all the way. The guy you mention ran 17:17 in the same race.
The 17-flat refers to Stone's view of my current capability on a flat course with good competition.
So, is an easy 10 what you want for tomorrow, Coach Stone?
Not a College Runner wrote:
I believe an abrupt change in stimulus is often what produces breakthroughs. Think wejo (slowed down his easy runs), and Mo Farah (sped up his easy runs and started lifting). Sure, everybody is different and would benefit from individualized training. But the breakthrough doesn't necessarily mean that one form of training is better than the other. It means that the base fitness accumulated after years of doing the same thing finally showed through when something changed. People forget wejo was a 3:50 1,500 runner in college. He clearly had speed and a high VO2 max. He needed to recover better between workouts and get in more easy aerobic miles. Dong so got him to 28:06. I put OR in the wejo category as somebody would benefit from slowing down. But wejo already had nearly a decade of intervals under his belt; OR does not. That's why I believe OR would benefit greatly from adding in some true VO2 max/CV intervals and Daniels R pace reps once a week, or strides at the least.
I'm interested to see how this discussion progresses.
Finally an intelligent analysis of wejo´s training. People on LRC often bring up wejo as a "proof" that the correct way to train always is to run very high mileage at a slow pace.
HRE wrote:
Then it fell out of favor when the physiologists came along. I suppose that because they had letters behind their names people let their ideas trump what many of us had done before and there was this idea that the physiologists knew what constituted the right way to train. But they've never really proven their ideas "correct" by producing better performances. We can't really point to someone today training like Clarke or Bill Adcocks did to evaluate how well that's working because you almost cannot find anyone doing that sort of thing.
A more recent example would be Mark Nenow. High mileage in mostly steady runs over hilly courses. Good enough for 27,20.
outsiderunner wrote:
When I look at what others around me are doing (here on this forum, in my local area, etc.), I see a lot of guys and gals doing what has been popularized over the last couple of decades...in a nutshell, polarized training with lots of easy pace running and a then workouts mixed in, maybe 1-2 times per week. There is structure and periodization, too. I also see a lot of people not even coming close to their goals, especially in the marathon, and so I say to myself: why should I change? Here in my local area, I see most people doing much the same, and yet I am beating virtually all of them at races—people who used to beat me. In fact, when I see them, they smile and congratulate me, and some of them even shake their heards in amazement in how I have improved as a runner. They are very kind, and I appreciate their kindness very much. So, again, what gives here? Why aren’t they improving, doing the this x that track workout, and the easy-paced jogging for recovery, etc.? In fact, and I am being very honest here, some of these peole have *regressed* in their race performance, AND nearly all of them are younger than I am. So, what gives?
American top runners underperform on a massive scale in the marathon compared to what Americans achieve in shorter distances, so obviously those fancy, modern training methods aren´t a guarantee for success.
If you race 1500 meter you have to have very polarized training - you can´t race the 1500 off steady runs and progressions, but with the marathon I´m not so sure.
outsiderunner wrote:
So, is an easy 10 what you want for tomorrow, Coach Stone?
Sorry, just saw this. Yeah, pick up at the start of the two week schedule. Easy miles today. The mileage on easy days is always going to be whatever feels right, ideally between 6-10 miles for this phase of training.
I hope the shin is feeling better.
I am reposting the schedule to make it easy for you.
12/31 - 1/6
M- 6-10 miles easy
T- 8-10 miles incorporating fartlek of 10-15 x (1:00 “fast”/1:00 “easy”).
W- 6-10 miles easy
Th- 10-12 miles incorporating 8-12 x 1km at 5:40-5:50/mi with :75 recovery jogs.
F- 6-10 miles easy
Sa- 6-10 miles easy
Su- 14-18 miles with the last 6-8 miles at marathon effort (6:05-6:15/mi).
Total: 56-80 miles
1/7 - 1/13
M- 6-10 miles easy
T- REST (HOLIDAY) - OPTIONAL
W- 10-12 miles incorporating 6-8 miles of tempo running (6:00-6:15/mi), either continuous or broken
Th- 6-10 miles easy
F- 6-10 miles easy
Sa- 6-10 miles incorporating 5k race
Su- 14-18 miles easy
Total: 48-70 miles.
If you need to include a rest day this week, that’s fine. I don’t want the shin, or anything else, to become bothersome early in the cycle.
The fartlek went well. Did 18 reps. I like this workout. I felt like I was going harder on the reps in comparison to last week...but overall time was almost exactly the same...10.25 miles at 6:43 overall pace. Rep block was from 20:00-56:00. Saw some 5:10 current pace on the watch (about three times). Yesterday was 11 at 7:17 overall in a fairly hard
run.
I totaled 65 miles last week. I noticed that you got 70. Did I do enough miles?
Forgot to note that I was 7:00, 7:01 in the cool down today vs. 6:56 and 6:42 last time. And so I was a bit faster in the speed block. Tried to keep the cool down slow.
outsiderunner wrote:
I totaled 65 miles last week...Did I do enough miles?
I think the schedule as written called for 48-70 miles last week. So, yes, you got in plenty of miles. Right now I wouldn’t be as concerned about your overall volume as much as the quality of the quality workouts and the easiness of the easy runs. Focus on getting the right efforts right first. The volume will come...
As far as what I am doing with my training or what any other runners are doing with their training...focus on what you are doing with your training. Your training belongs only to you because only you have this particular set of races lined up with these particular long-term goals. Worry only about accomplishing the goal of the day. Do that repeatedly and that will take you to your long-term goals...
That makes a lot of sense.
That workout this morning was so satisfying that I would like to go out and run it again. Of course, I will not do that, but I just wanted to convey the feeling it has left me with. It gave me a huge high. Still am somewhat high right now.
Happy New Year, Coach Stone. May 2019 be a good one for you and Mrs Stone.
Did the 1K workout. Ran 0.65 mi reps instead of the 0.60 mi reps I did the first time. 0.60 just felt like “cheating” to me, and so I went a tad over rather than a tad under. So, my target was about 3:45 for the reps. I averaged 3:45.7 for the 10 reps. Thus, did 10 x 0.65. I averaged 5:47.2 on the speed reps. Was able to slow some on the cool down...7:13, 6:59, 3:26 vs. 7:10, 6:49, 3:28 last time. Did 13.21 miles overall.
That is a fairly tough workout. A nice high right now.
OR - Thank you for the 2019 well wishes. Mrs. Stone and I are both off to good starts this new year with our workouts also.
I am glad you are enjoying the fartlek and are not getting hung up on the paces of it. It should be run all on feel, and the tendency of most runners is the start the first few reps around 10k-HM pace to rev things up, after a couple of minutes lock into that 5k-8k effort for the majority of the workout, and maybe for the last few get closer to 1mi-3k pace if the muscles are really loose. Done properly, you should feel like you could keep going for awhile. That's also the perfect time to shut it down and save it for another day, like that tougher 10 x .65mi you did a couple days after.
Adding up the work, you did 6.5 miles at 5:47/mi pace off relatively short breaks (75 secs). That's a pretty solid indicator of sub-36:00 10k ability right now. My hunch is that if pushed, and on a faster course, you could certainly be a fair amount faster than that even.
I also want to you know that as you (re)cycle through these workouts, you do not necessarily have to do them longer or faster than you did them the previous time. I know that may seem strange. As we get closer to your goal race and goal event (the marathon), we will be a little more specific and want to hone in on paces that properly funnel toward goal pace. But for now, I just want you to have fun with this variety of workouts and learn how to do them and how to get better at "feeling" them. If you let the workouts come to you, rather than forcing them, they will naturally over time feel easier, make you faster, and make you a much better racer across a variety of distances. Keeping the easy days at the proper easy intensity, of course, allows these workouts to happen.
But most importantly, these workouts will have you ready to take on the more specific marathon training to come. Keep up the great work.
Good comments Stone regarding sense of feel. I like where this is headed. It would be interesting to see a macro view of the cycle apart from the idea of funneling towards goal pace.
Great to hear back from you Stone, and from you, too, too hot. I could not agree more about learning how to do these workouts. I want to have command over them. I am looking forward to running and learning...and, of course, blasting a fast marathon.
That was a heck of a run. After the 8.5 at 7:03 in the dark last night, I was right back at it this afternoon, even with some cold symptoms still there. Went 16:25 at 6:46 overall. Did a “10+6”...10 easy and then 6 at MP. Was not sure if I could get to MP today, since I have a cold, but as the run went along, I felt better and better. By mile 9, I knew I would be able to hit another gear. Here are my splits...
7:32, 7:17, 7:19, 7:18, 7:15, 7:08, 7:01, 7:03, 7:01, 7:10
6:10, 6:09, 6:05, 6:06, 6:04, 5:56, 1:28
I basically felt good from the get-go, but was leery in my running as I was not sure if/when I would start feeling like trash. I was VERY surprised that I never felt like trash. It was just the opposite. The six MP miles were in complete control, and I felt I had better command over them than last time.
Thank you so much, Stone, for getting me to 80 miles...that is, 80 miles comfortably. Never thought an 80-mile week could feel like that...and with three quality days, too. Right now, I am shivering, though, probably from the symptoms and the excitement. Need a hot shower.