1500m WR is now 20 years old!

Looking at flat out pbs, especially when comparing across different eras, doesn't tell the whole story.

For a start, Ramzi's 3:29.1 off 52.3 and 1:49.2, is equivalent to at least 3:27 flat with evened out splits, and I would go as far as to say that he was probably capable of breaking that other Moroccan's WR of 3:26.0 that night with reasonable pacing.

Secondly, I wouldn't class 3:29.67 and 3:29.77 runs as being "easily" under 3:30. As I said earlier, look at Coe's face and body language after that 3:29.7; he was shattered.

One could argue that Scott's 3:47.69 Mile in 82, was close to being a 3:30 1500 equivalent. I'd also add that Webb's 3:46 high is equivalent to a sub 3:30. He had lots of injuries, and was capable of sub 3:30. I don't believe Centro is as talented as Scott or Webb.

Thirdly, athletics isn't as popular in the US or Europe as it was in the 80's. I think the guys in the 80's were running pretty close to the limit of what is possible clean, in an era when T&F was a very popular sport. The fact that no one (domestically born) in the US or UK have bettered times set in the 1980's (although African born Lagat and Farah have) does not mean that the latter group were doped, it could easily be a symptom of the fact that generally all the athletes were clean (then and now)and that the talent pool has diminished over the last 30 years.

Moreover, there have been 2 sub 1:43 800 runners from the US in the last 10 years, compared to 1 in the 80's. There have also been 4 US born guys who have run sub 13:00 in the 5k in the last 10 years, compared to none in the 80's, which is the opposite to the trend in the 1500m. Does this mean the 800 and 5k 80 guys were clean, and the ones from the last 20 years doped because they are faster?

ex-runner wrote:

7 races in 9 days is tough across the 800/1500 events and history has shown how tough it is. This is testament to Coe of course but the only man I can think of that's done this successfully in the modern era is Makhloufi and many think he's doping.

What about Snell in 1964? 6 races in approximately 9 days. And he won 2 golds! Does that mean he must have doped?

ex-runner wrote:

If faces are telling then Guerrouj is clean. Guy used to collapse after races and look absolutely spent.

What! We must have been looking at different races! He always looked as fresh as a daisy to me and hardly out of breath?

Don't confuse his kneeling down and kissing the track for his religion as being spent physically.

That's BS. A country of 325 million and no talented mid-d younsters capable of running sub-3:30?

Athletics is very popular in this country; I co-coach my kid who's a mid-d runner and also plays football in the fall (DB). There are several other football players who run mid-d in track and still more others from football who run sprints. This trend I've seen over the years where more football kids are going out for track and wanting to run middle distances as well. That increases the talent pool. This past season alone there were 12 kids on the team running the 1600, 5 running sub-4:50.

Look at all the young talent over the years in the middle-distances in the U.S. of A. Too many names to mention right now. Why could your British idols to it so well back in the dark ages and no American can't do it now? ?

El Guerrouj did not run as fast as Sebastian Coe over 800m because it has been scientifically proven (ref. Wurst, 1972) that STEROIDS directly improve performance at a greater rate at 800m than 1500m.

It is well known Coe could have done steroids in the steroids era (1980s) in addition to his alleged blood transfusions.

And there's people here who claim an American could have ran faster than El G in the 60's if he'd had a modern track.

Why do you say 'easily running sub-3:30'? Exaggerating much? Both Coe and Cram ran high 3:29 once, Ovett never did, as compared to EL G only a decade later with no new training, tracks, running up to a dozen sub 3:30 or Mile equivalents in a single season. As I've stated, I believe all three could have ran faster with better pacing and so on, but the same might be said for guys like Steve Scott, and Ray Flynn. Alan Webb ran the equivalent of a sub 3:30 at what was it? 17 or 18, and built like a brick sh**t house as well. Pretty sure that if your high school kids can run the equivalent of sub 3:30 even back in the 60's, then in that brief period when middle-distance running was almost as popular as football in the UK, that a population that had always dominated the events up until the war could produce several greats.

Does it follow that Ryun was an obvious doper? If he could run faster than Americans can today (or equivalent) half a century ago, and when a teen as well, surely he must have doped? For that matter Scott too, especially as he ran in the 'dark ages'.

And don't give the bull that you're only applying 'our logic' on El G and Moroccans to the Brits. If El G was in isolation then his performances would still be somewhat suspect giving his unparalleled feats, but in the context of the EPO era and the number of busts from Moroccans subsequently, including training partners.

Where do you stand on the issue of doping in golf? Clearly the British golfers are dirty as hell as well. The USA has a population of, what is it, 6 or 7 times that of the UK? Yet of the top 15 ranked golfers, 7 are American and four are British. I think quite recently, the GB had 3 or the top 5 or something like that.

Number of golf facilities in the USA : 15,372

Number of golf facilities in England/Scotland : 3000 (aprox)

Now imagine if golf was very much more popular in the UK than America, and the number of golf facilities instead of 5 x1 for the USA, more equal. I'd guess that there would be more Brits in the top 10 rankings than Americans (which does happen occasionally anyway).

Sweden has 2 players in the top 17, with a population of 8 million, with 491 golf clubs instead of 15,372. Maybe the asthma medication?

No this can't be right wrote:

ex-runner wrote:

Rono was the only man with EPO in 1978 of course, or he was using blood transfusions in rural Africa where there was an aids epidemic coming to the fore...

Rono lived in Oregon, US.

Aids was more of a 1980s crisis???

No one even knew what hiv/aids was in 1978. The breadth ignorance on these boards is both baffling and impressive.

Deanouk wrote:

With Ngeny in 99, we have 13 very fast races, dispersed over 3 months, with no more than 2 weeks between any of them, in a Championship year when he was racing against El G. Again, I reiterate, the 2 seasons were not comparable in terms of prolonged intensity.

Look it's pretty obvious that Ngeny was on the rocket fuel, in simple terms the pre epo era (including simplistic transfusions) was like planes flying from NY to London on one tank of fuel, whereas epo was like suddenly flying from Capetown to Calgary or London to Auckland etc non-stop. You could go further, faster for longer.

Yes Deano, we might be around the same age!

Re 3:26 clean: I think we are talking about something different. I'm not at all talking about the actual progressien, if an progression of 3.46 seconds in less than a decade shouldn't rise an "red flag"...

I'm just talking that 3:26 clean IS POSSIBLE (which many posters here have denied I think). Paavo Nurmi has run 30:06 for 10000m. Was it possible in the 1920s to improve this in one step to sub 28 minutes? For sure - also very, very unlikely. Humans almost havn't changed since than - since it is today possible to achieve such a time (even on the tracks they had back then), for sure it was also possible then. Again, very, very (some more "verys") unlikely - but POSSIBLE. And for sure 3:26 is possible. Even faster. 1:00 is not possible.

RNA wrote:

No this can't be right wrote:

Rono lived in Oregon, US.

Aids was more of a 1980s crisis???

No one even knew what hiv/aids was in 1978. The breadth ignorance on these boards is both baffling and impressive.

It was a joke.

And for your information the first epidemic of AIDs IN AFRICA was in the 1970s. (It hit the US and the whole homosexual population issues came later, America isn't the centre of the universe).

AIDS was in Africa since the 30s. It became a pandemic in the 80s but was already an epidemic in the early to mid 70s in Africa.

Coevett wrote:

Does it follow that Ryun was an obvious doper? If he could run faster than Americans can today (or equivalent) half a century ago, and when a teen as well, surely he must have doped? For that matter Scott too, especially as he ran in the 'dark ages'.

Yes.

Would you have a counter argument (other than that he didn't test positive)?

Deanouk wrote:

ex-runner wrote:

7 races in 9 days is tough across the 800/1500 events and history has shown how tough it is. This is testament to Coe of course but the only man I can think of that's done this successfully in the modern era is Makhloufi and many think he's doping.

What about Snell in 1964? 6 races in approximately 9 days. And he won 2 golds! Does that mean he must have doped?

ex-runner wrote:

If faces are telling then Guerrouj is clean. Guy used to collapse after races and look absolutely spent.

What! We must have been looking at different races! He always looked as fresh as a daisy to me and hardly out of breath?

Don't confuse his kneeling down and kissing the track for his religion as being spent physically.

You keep misunderstanding my points. I don't think there is any particular evidence that Coe doped. You and others were the ones bringing up multiple races in a short period as evidence of doping. I don't think it is, personally. I think it's a weak argument. Snell is another one that reinforces my point, along with Rono and Coe.

And watch El G at the end here, he can barely stand, lies flat on his back and his face is in a full grimace

Compare to Alan Webb here who immediately runs around celebrating without a break. At around 4:40.

Looks can be deceiving in my view. Amos is absolutely wiped out after his 800m Olympic silver, he was actually carried off on a stretcher and went to hospital but I'd bet my house he doped.

It really annoys me at the magic powers people give to PEDs. They do what they do, improve endurance or strength or reaction speeds etc.

They don't remove the fatigue process entirely otherwise guys would have run 3:00 for 1500m or whatever the mechanical limit of the human body is. They don't allow athletes to drop 10 seconds in a few weeks over the 1500m unless that runners PB was 5:00. They don't give athletes perfect running form or a beautiful stride. Sumgong used to look like shite.

EPO very simply improves the transport of oxygen.

It must be understood that El Guerrouj was an extremely talented runner, physiologically and biomechanically perfect for middle distance running, had a beautiful efficient stride, extremely hard working, full 24/7 lifetime dedication to training living in the Atlas mountains not like these kids playing fortnite on Instagram and then he probably had the wonder of EPO on top.

That's why I feel that 3:26 is out of reach for pretty much anyone when clean.

You've just said that El G 'probably had the wonder of EPO on top' AND 'I don't think there is any particular evidence that Coe doped'.

So now you think El G doped and Coe didn't, but we're racists for thinking the same?

Also, as Deano said, looking at the way El G acted after his 1500 WR, he lies on the track because he's stunned he ran so fast. He doesn't 'need to be helped up', he was simply pulled up. He doesn't look even slightly out of breath, and seconds after he's lifting his own coach off the ground and then almost sprinting his victory lap.

He kissed the track because he was giving thanks to the EPO God for making it possible.

Coevett wrote:

Are you kidding me wrote:

Kiprop says he didn’t do it. Kiprop says he’s anti-doping. He must be clean.

That’s your argument.

Yeah, but Kiprop failed a test you moron. He also comes from a culture of doping where testers give advance warning and accept bribes, and yet despite this, athletes are getting busted regularly.

There is no reason to believe Cram was dirty other than your assumption that 'everybody is dirty', which is exactly that - an assumption not an argument.

Umm of course Kiprop is dirty? That’s the point. You tried to exonerate Cram on character alone and I repeated your exact argument with Kiprop to show why it doesn’t work. If it isn’t logically valid for Kiprop, it isn’t logically valid for Cram.

Why exactly did you assume I think “everybody is dirty”? You tried to claim that Cram must be clean, and I discredited that. All that means is Cram isn’t definitely clean. Anything else you’ve extrapolated from that is a product of your mind.

All that other generic screaming about Kenyans is of no interest to me whatsoever. Please leave it out in your future responses.

Are you trying to argue that he wasn’t tired after a 3:26? What is your 1500 PR? How much did it hurt?

Just talking gibberish to yourself. At least I can detect an argument in the likes of Ex-runner.

kj wrote:

El Guerrouj did not run as fast as Sebastian Coe over 800m because it has been scientifically proven (ref. Wurst, 1972) that STEROIDS directly improve performance at a greater rate at 800m than 1500m.

It is well known Coe could have done steroids in the steroids era (1980s) in addition to his alleged blood transfusions.

^^^^ This

+1000x

Star wrote:

ukathleticscoach wrote:

3:26 has never been run clean

El G, B test Lagat & Kiprop

What a joke

I'm not sure if 3:30 has ever been run clean.

I don't know...but it doesn't look good for Morroco.

The top 6 all-time fastest Morrocan 1500 runners:

1. El Guerrouj (3:26.00/1998)

2. Iguider (3:28.79/2015)

3. Ramzi (3:29.14/2006) CERA positive (IC/2008)

4. Aouita (3:29.46/1985)

5. Laâlou (3:29.53/2010) M.agent positive (PC/2012) & EPO positive (OOC/2016)

6. Kaouch (3:31.10/2006) EPO positive (IC/2007)

Aouita is very suspicious and a likely doper, IMO. Iguider, though his time was posted at Monoco, is running more than a half a second faster than confirmed doper Ramzi. El G ran all three of his WRs in the EPO-era time frame where one could dope with impunity. Also, his biggest performance jump on his career profile was a 3 second increase in 2 yrs from 3:29.05 in 96 to the WR of 3:26.00 in 98 (~1.4%).

That's 3 out of their 6 fastest ever 1500 guys busted for EPO. And unless anyone believes in a 100% detection rate for anti-doping, these are just the guys that got caught.

Excellent, you’ve established the possibility of guilt. Now, can you establish guilt? Otherwise, I’m not sure what you expect to learn from this.

Sand Dunes wrote:

kj wrote:

El Guerrouj did not run as fast as Sebastian Coe over 800m because it has been scientifically proven (ref. Wurst, 1972) that STEROIDS directly improve performance at a greater rate at 800m than 1500m.

It is well known Coe could have done steroids in the steroids era (1980s) in addition to his alleged blood transfusions.

^^^^ This

+1000x

El G would have had the new form of HGH (only available from 85) which transformed the sprints, and he would be able to spend entire winters roiding up. There might have been better steroid testing in his era, but certainly not in Morocco and knowledge of cycling roids was much improved by his time. Coe ran low 1:43 at age 33 in 89, well past his best, when testing was certainly better (hence Johnson's bust in Seoul). 1:43 at age 33 when Coe was much more of a 1500 runner than in 81, certainly is consistent with running 1:41.7 clean in 81.

You are 100% doping apologists. 'Yeah, El G and the rest were dirty as hell, but it's o.k. because everybody is dirty and you're raysheest if you disagree'. That's all your 'arguments' amount too.

Coe had a better running form than El G. Not saying El G didn't have good form, but Coe was perfection, and most agree with that. His races in 81 and the relaxed effortless manner he won them in were unmatched. Yet it was all because Dbol was powering his 120lb body along. LOL!