NY Times Article on Nike Oregon Project implicates Ritz and Farah

32oo2 wrote:

what's supposed to be the worst/most serious allegation here?

the infusions of a legal substance were an illegal 4 hours instead of 1?

it's been clear for over a decade they were probably overeager in their thyroid medications, when the Gouchers both got prescribed with hypothyroidism as soon as moving to Portland.

That's correct, Bubba. Taking too much intravenous L-Carnitine is dangerous and can cause stroke or heart attack.

Heart attacks are bad wrote:

That's correct, Bubba. Taking too much intravenous L-Carnitine is dangerous and can cause stroke or heart attack.

I have no idea if that is true or not, but the amount of L-carnitine is not the source of any antidoping violation. It is the amount of total fluid that is regulated.

Montesquieu wrote:

Finally, isn't the big news what's not in the article--namely, no mention of EPO or Testosterone or PEDs generally?

It's long past time for folks to stop trying to find ways around the fact that these NIke people are cheating. It's not as if the concept of doping in distance running is never in the news, worldwide.

I know your type, and you refuse to live in reality. You will gladly stomp your feet in indignation over what you see as a lack of compelling evidence until someone actually produces a videotape of these athletes screaming "Yes, we did it!" and waving spent vials of injectable hGH and testosterone around, and even then you will either say that it was a stunt or coerced testimony and doesn't really signify anything meaningful. But you don't want evidence; you want your delusions maintained at all costs to reasonable discourse.

As others have pointed out, and as any literate party can discern from the article, there are unquestionably documented doping violations to deal with here, independent of all of the more glamorous EPO and T stuff that is not needed to get Salazar out the sport he has helped damage so much, but is likely in his repertoire as well.

The sad thing is, at some point down the line you'll pretend you were on board with wiser people all along, and chuckle, "Ah, well. I was just waiting for actual evidence, but I knew as well as you all did these no-goodniks were up to something."

Is there any special reason some people prefer giving the appearance of having a mental disorder to accepting the actual state of things here? Is it more comfortable that way? Unless someone is personally invested in the outcome here, it doesn't make sense to me. And I'm not buying that the people defending the NOP are paid Nike shills and whatnot. I think they are legitimately confused and adversarial ignoramuses.

You're rubbish and know nothing about "how things work". You have our pity subway Jared surfers addiction...you stupid freak!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

psych 101 and then some wrote:

Salazar doesn't have to seek attention and Nike already pays him tons. He's still a world class coach.

In terms of ego Salazar is far ahead of any distance coach on the planet.

This is rubbish, Salazar is getting the creme de la creme, pumping millions into them & then the results? Rupp is the only long term athlete he has coached, a silver and bronze (which isn't bad). Centro, the son of the American 5k record holder has done well. But Mo was sub 13 prior to joining NOP and double European champion (and he constitutes 4/5ths of NOPs success). But there is a lot of misses though, more fails then successes. He has access to top US HS and NCAA athletes and did nothing with them, actually many went backwards under his guidance. Most of his programs are borrowed so he isn't cutting edge in that area. He did not take a bunch of hobby joggers to legend status. Personally, the androgel issue will always be more telling when discussing Salazar.[/quote]

It would be completely legal to eat 9.67 grams (or any amount) of L-carnitine by pills or powder with oral intake of the L-carnitine.

Alberto's lab rat-experimental subject (= Steve Magness) stated in the NYT article that the results of his treadmill test after the L-carnitine infusion were "almost unbelievable."

I do not know the meaning of "almost unbelievable."

I do not see any magic "almost unbelievable" results with the IV L-carnitine infusions by Mo Farah or Dathan Ritzenhein.

Ritz was 4th at the 2012 Olympic marathon trials and Mo was 8th at the 2014 London marathon.

Ritz was 2nd (with Mo Farah 1st) at the Sept. 2016 Great North Half-marathon with a time of 1:00:12…which is only 12 seconds away from his all-time best of 1:00:00 with Coach Alberto.

How was Ritz able to run just as fast as his PR…without an underwater treadmill… and without an outer-space-alter-gravity treadmill… and without a cryochamber (which almost killed him one time)... and without Nike Speedy Duct Tape™…and without an L-carnitine IV infusion…and most importantly……..without Alberto Salazar???

Answer:

It looks like all these stupid ideas (and stupid Alberto) were not really needed at all by Dathan Ritzenhein to run...as well as Dathan has ever run in his entire life.

Who was the genius coaching Dathan for his 1:00:12 Half-marathon in 2016?

Did the genius coach have the "secret" to training?

Did the genius coach have the name: Dathan Ritzenhein???

This is absolutely shocking…and it saves a lot of money on coaching at the same time.

TrackBot! VDOT 1:00:12 Half marathon

Go Ritz!!!

VDOT for 1:00:12 21.0975km: 81.2

Equivalent race times based on VDOT:

Marathon: 02:05:57

Half marathon: 01:00:06

15K: 00:41:51

10K: 00:27:20

5K: 00:13:07

3Mi: 00:12:38

2Mi: 00:08:08

3200m: 00:08:05

3K: 00:07:32

1Mi: 00:03:48

1600m: 00:03:47

1500m: 00:03:32

I am a bot. Info: habs.sdf.org/trackbot

Good post, but just so you are aware Ritz has a alter-gravity treadmill at his house in Rockford, MI. There is also one at GVSU that I'm sure he has used when training on their indoor track also.

Just curious, is there any real (peer reviewed, random clinical trial) science that any of Salazar's dyi doping is actually effective?

It appears to be the total fluids given. Here is the text from the WADA prohibited list:

2. Intravenous infusions and/or injections of more than

50 mL per 6 hour period except for those legitimately

received in the course of hospital admissions, surgical

procedures or clinical investigations.

Honestly I believe this was put in the code to prohibit manipulation around testing, not to prohibit this as a method of administration for supplements, but I dont' really know.[/quote]

Hi, I'm pretty sure the original Times (UK or whoever) article outlined claims that a small pharmacy (in Texas or Arizona) agreed to create the solution for them. I actually talked to the guy (in the UK) who first studied this, friendly chap, he said nothing about any IV studies though. He was adamant that the powder solution was best but he just said the key was the mix with carbs. Apparently, the University (Nottingham???) commercial arm was supposed to be coming out with a supplement late last year, I never heard any more. Interestingly, Dr. Oz had to reverse course on l-carnitine and issue a disclaimer stating too much can lead to a build up of plaque in the arteries. That is why I never tried any. Salazar was asked a few years back what supplements his athletes took, he said "only beta-alanine" so I tried it about 3-5 months ago and nothing, barely placebo, but I doubt this. Again another Salazar piece of B.S.

Here is the difference in my mind.

Ritz when asked admitted to everything. Claims he thought it was legal and didn't know that Alberto was not telling the truth about USADA approval.

Welling lied about it and changed her story when pressed.

Kara is still unwilling to admit that she took anything. Legal or not. But claims that teammates did.

Ritz comes out as the biggest hero to me.

Dathan lives in my hometown. Therefore, he would not lie.

Dwight Schrute

When Coach Alberto discovered his "new secret method of IV infusion of L-carnitine"…did he want to email anyone about his new genius scientist discovery???

Answer:

1) Yes. Alberto sent an email to... LANCE ARMSTRONG... to tell Lance about his genius scientist discovery.

The Sunday Times published more of the email from Alberto Salazar and showed that Galen Rupp and Lance Armstrong were the only athletes Salazar said he was going to tell of the finding.

Alberto wrote Lance saying... “Lance, call me asap! We have tested it and it’s amazing. You are the only athlete I’m going to tell the actual numbers to other than Galen Rupp. It’s too incredible. All completely legal and natural! You will finish the iron man in about 16 minutes less while taking this.”

Conclusion:

1) Oh boy Alberto. Really???

What about Galen???

In 2015, Rupp told The Sunday Times, “The first time I tried L-carnitine was in mid-2011 as a drink and I stopped taking it in 2012. I did not get any infusions or injections in 2011. I found no benefit so I stopped using it.”

The USADA report describes Rupp’s statement as ‘false’ and ‘seriously misleading.'

It adds: “Rupp, in fact, received an L-carnitine infusion on January 5, 2012, in an amount USADA believes . . . may have exceeded the Wada 50ml limit and may therefore have constituted anti-doping rule violation."

Rupp said that he had always fully complied with WADA rules and that L-carnitine treatment was with USADA’s directions.

Really???

Question:

Is it possible that Alberto Salazar and Galen Rupp “Resisted, Delayed” and “Only Partially and Selectively Responded” to USADA’s Requests for Information???

Answer:

The Sunday Times has this excerpt:

”C. IMPEDIMENTS TO USADA’S INVESTIGATION

1. Resistance to efforts to obtain documents from Salazar and Rupp

Alberto Salazar and Galen Rupp have strongly resisted, delayed complying with and only partially and selectively responded to USADA’s efforts to obtain relevant documents from them. For instance, as explained herein, Salazar has been staunchly resistant to USADA’s requests to review medical records substantiating his claims that he has a valid medical justification to possess and use TESTOSTERONE."

"In response to USADA’s request that he turnover relevant emails he claimed that he was unauthorized to do so because his emails were on the Nike server system. Consequently, Salazar insisted that USADA must work with Nike to attempt to obtain the documents.

"Nike initially sought to place numerous conditions on USADA’s receipt of documents from Nike that would have greatly restricted USADA’s use of the documents."

"Eventually, Nike and Salazar dumped some 5,000 pages of documents on USADA less than three (3) business days before Salazar’s interview, affording USADA insufficient time to review the documents in advance of the interview.”

Conclusion:

1) Oh boy Alberto!

2) Oh boy NIKE lawyers!

3) Hey Alberto. Please stop it.

I wonder if this will have any impact on Murphy going to the NOP

Zipper wrote:

I wonder if this will have any impact on Murphy going to the NOP

The decision for some will be about glory and money. Ask no questions and become a "winner." Very common in a sports.

Nike Marketing Team wrote:

It is important to note that this investigation has been going on since 2015 and all they have are "ALLEGATIONS".

Unless they have a blood test that can show they broke doping laws. They will remain allegations, and nothing will ever happen. Regardless of how much Kara complains.

REALLY? Where were you when the Lance Armstrong house of cards fell apart? Antarctica? FYI, none of the ACTIVE us postal SERVICE RECORD EVER TESTED POSITIVE FOR DOPING (except Floyd Landis who was NOT a part of US Postal services when he was popped, but his sworn statements proved damaging to Lance et.al) . I am sure you already know the results.

This is the beginning of the end for Salazar and the whole NOP.

Dathan does not live in Rockford. I'm his neighbor, and I don't live in Rockford. He went to Rockford High School. Let's get with the program people.

rockfordmirunner wrote:

Good post, but just so you are aware Ritz has a alter-gravity treadmill at his house in Rockford, MI. There is also one at GVSU that I'm sure he has used when training on their indoor track also.

Money Maker wrote:

Zipper wrote:

I wonder if this will have any impact on Murphy going to the NOP

The decision for some will be about glory and money. Ask no questions and become a "winner." Very common in a sports.

Or maybe all these people that continue to join the team (Jenkins, Sifan recently, maybe Murphy and Chez this Summer) are actually good people and know things that we don't know? There is no way people would continue to go there if they believed the things that are talked about on here. And if you believe the stuff on here then that is a bad group of people. I know one and can say from the bottom of my heart they would never have stayed all these years if this stuff was true.

But Dathan admitted it after he was caught? And she willingly went in? And gave them her medical records?I know it's easy to hate her, but you got some Dathan love goggles. If the roles were reversed you'd fry her for singing after she was caught. But somehow he's a hero?Also, this injection stuff is after she left. People don't want to acceot Dathan doped.

Blame gamer wrote:

Here is the difference in my mind.

Ritz when asked admitted to everything. Claims he thought it was legal and didn't know that Alberto was not telling the truth about USADA approval.

Welling lied about it and changed her story when pressed.

Kara is still unwilling to admit that she took anything. Legal or not. But claims that teammates did.

Ritz comes out as the biggest hero to me.

MurphMurph wrote:

Money Maker wrote:

The decision for some will be about glory and money. Ask no questions and become a "winner." Very common in a sports.

Or maybe all these people that continue to join the team (Jenkins, Sifan recently, maybe Murphy and Chez this Summer) are actually good people and know things that we don't know? There is no way people would continue to go there if they believed the things that are talked about on here. And if you believe the stuff on here then that is a bad group of people. I know one and can say from the bottom of my heart they would never have stayed all these years if this stuff was true.

People are saying that a method, is a drug, that a protein is a drug.

IMS, they eventually concluded L-C., didn't work, and discontinued it.