To Malmo, Hodgie, and the other "greats: a few words about talent

KCTrack wrote:

I don't think malmo ever said run a lot of miles you will get faster...he has said you need to experiment and find out what is right for you and then do that...with that will come a point in time you will havae to run a lot of miles...if it makes you faster than do it...if it doesn't then continue to experiment and find what is right for you...right for you is the ket phrase in what he has always said...and I am sure 5:30- 6:00 pace was easy for him most of the time...it was for me when I was in another life time so I am sure it was for him...

Which is what he says is the right mileage, correct? Not high mileage, but the right amount for each person.

And just for the record, malmo, I find you funny as hell and look forward to implementing some of your ideas this winter/summer.

-A youngin'

x said, "Pete, well said."

Thanks, x. I spent my whole week in the penalty box wondering "why me, why me?" and also waiting to spring that little gem.

Makes me want to try to come up with a variation of "When the student is ready, the master will appear," but I got nothing...

Tom, the guys running at 5:20 to 5:30 aren't running anaerobically. The observation that they're talking to each

other is a clue. Tergat was running 10 @ 5 for breakfast. If

you move the LT and have some ability these paces become

routine.--Fred

Fred: but if fast guys are running aerobically at 5:20 to 5:30, and Tergat can run 5:00's easily on his morning runs, how do you reconcile the marathon WR only being 15-20 sec/mile faster than his easy running pace? And how do you explain someone like Wejo running 7:00 miles for most of his mileage and having a 10K PR at roughly 4:30 pace?

I find it odd that nobody will concede that Malmo's and Wejo's training philosophies are completely different, when on the one hand they are saying that for a fast guy running high mileage, anywhere from 5:00 to 6:00 pace can be an easy run pace, while at the same time saying yeah, Wejo's idea is great, run lots of miles really slowly. If you could run 5:30's all week long with a minimal amount of effort, why would you run 7:00's?

JEEZUZFREAKINCHRIST! Tom, you are absolutely thick. Now 5:00 pace is easy? STOP IT MORON!. I said it can feel easy sometimes, "almost effortless" NOT 5:00 pace is easy! Do you understand anything at all?

To humor you, just for arguments sake alone, let's just say that Wejo and my training philosophies ARE completely different. What's your freakin point?

Can anyone on here give examples of individuals in which high mileage DID NOT HELP their running (injuries don't count)

OK, so you said 5:00 pace can feel easy sometimes, "almost effortless". And another poster said 5:00 pace for Tergat was something he did 10 miles of for breakfast. And I'm a "moron" for writing that posters are suggesting paces from 5:00 to 6:00 are easy for top runners. Hmmm. Wait, which one of us is the moron again?

As "just say no" said, you cannot be wrong. You just got caught out completely contradicting yourself, and you're still not wrong. In your system, anything is true if you're in the mood, and if it turns out without a doubt to be false, you still weren't wrong. And you have a little crowd of hero-worshippers who hang on your every word like you're some freaking mysterious guru. The way I see it, you won't commit to any plan more complex than "do what's right" because you always want to have the option of belittling people. Everything anybody says is wrong if you don't like their attitude, and since you won't really define what "right" is, you're not being inconsistent. Convenient. And to think that your little worship-monkeys are always talking about all the valuable contributions you make to this board....like what? Hey everybody, do the training that is optimal for you and you will get a good result! Hey everybody, let me tell you how awesome I used to be!

And I'm a little tired of your personal insults to me with every post, as I've been a gentleman by comparison. Having said that, I think you're an over-the-hill, bitter, arrogant dickhead. If you'd spent a little less time in your glory years zipping around at 5:30 pace and a little more time thinking of ways to be less of a dickhead, well, you'd probably still have achieved your station in life of an 8th-rate obscure celebrity on a running forum, but at least you might not be such a dickhead.

You're very welcome ,just say no.

A boatload of red herrings. You've been stripped of all logic and reason, so you've desperately sought out any phrase or any nuance in lexeme that you could somehow contort and juxtaposition to support your patently false thesis.

I said in another thread, that (for a highly trained runner such as Clayton) 5:45 to 6:00 pace was hardly an effort.

It was dunes runner who changed the quote to "5:30 to 6:00 pace was easy for Clayton", to which I responded "5:30 to 6:00 pace IS easy for ME".

Then TomM, as is his MO, changed it to "VERY easy" and finally "effortless". To which I responded, " 5:00 was hard, but sometimes was "effortless".

I'll even take it a step further, when an athlete is well-trained, the concinnity is such that 4:40 pace was "effortless". Does that now mean I'm saying 4:40 pace is easy in your feeble mind?

You are so obsessed with trying to me wrong at something (there must be something you can twist), that you are not, and never have been, engaged in any cogent discussion at this board.

A couple of things: I've trained where more than 50 percent of my running was on grass and trail and where all of my running was on the roads. I'd rather run the roads and have firm footing than risk twisting my ankle on rough surfaces any day. Secondly, Brian Fullem, our resident podiatrist gave the testimony for one of the foremost experts in the field on the physics of hill running. Thirdly, you're damn straight, running three seasons should be no problem. The successes of NCAA runners in the past and present (xc, indoors and outdoors) is the proof.

Now get out and run some.

malmo and wejo, hodgiesans and others write simply to challenge you concerning ideas about training, they are offering opinions to training then and now, but actually, you DO NOT NEED their approval for what you do, you can slice and dice it all your own way and viola', make your training and your ideas about it your own! why do you care is malmo says that running on a sidewalk is hard on your legs vs not running on a sidewalk? 5:00 or 5:30 or 6:30, who the hell cares?

your seeking approval or approbation from malmo and I wonder why. he's been tossing ideas into the salad and you're looking for the discrepanies in his verbage...so it is you who should challenge your motives. is he right? is he wrong? hhhmmmmm, only the shadow knows.....

mow your own path to greatness, come back and tell us about it.

TomM wrote:

And I'm a little tired of your personal insults to me with every post, as I've been a gentleman by comparison. Having said that, I think you're an over-the-hill, bitter, arrogant dickhead. If you'd spent a little less time in your glory years zipping around at 5:30 pace and a little more time thinking of ways to be less of a dickhead, well, you'd probably still have achieved your station in life of an 8th-rate obscure celebrity on a running forum, but at least you might not be such a dickhead.

LOL, you have got to be kidding. The fact is, each and everyone of your posts in this thread has been riddled with distortion and the intent is to bait and inflame. Just go to SEARCH at the top of the thread index and type in "TomM" see what come up?

TomM wrote:

And I'm a little tired of your personal insults to me with every post, as I've been a gentleman by comparison. Having said that, I think you're an over-the-hill, bitter, arrogant dickhead. If you'd spent a little less time in your glory years zipping around at 5:30 pace and a little more time thinking of ways to be less of a dickhead, well, you'd probably still have achieved your station in life of an 8th-rate obscure celebrity on a running forum, but at least you might not be such a dickhead.

Malmo is the "over the hill, bitter, arrogant dickhead?" It sounds to me like just say no, dunesrunner and TomM are the ones who are envious that they weren't successful enough to become American Record holders...

Keep on arguing with Malmo, guys...it won't change the fact that all three of you are pathetic losers who are taking out their own lack of heart and guts in the realm of competitive running on a guy who is just giving out some of his own opinions on how to improve.

But keep up with the "penis envy" of trying to trip up a much more successful runner than yourselves...maybe if you would have spent more time training instead of bitching and moaning, you woulda been something.

Have a nice day!!! :)

Drunk N. Hyena

As far as contributions to the board go, both Hodgie-san and Malmo have provided specific answers to people who have posed questions and would probably have done the same for you had you ever asked. They have also both written up training plans that are available on the web for free. Hodgie's is at his website, I'm not sure where Malmo's is now, it used to be at Kemibe's website.

I got to know Arthur Lydiard many years ago and have been at talks he's given and read advice that he's written. He's similar to Malmo and Hodgie-san in that he's available for discussion and to answer questions, at least he was in his younger years. But he had little patience for people who had obviously enagaged him in discussion in an attempt to "prove" that he was wrong about something.

When I was young and trying to get faster I made a point of trying to learn what people who had run well did and how they approached the sport. Hodgie and Malmo have made themselves available here for people who are like I once was and there is a group of us here who respect them for what they've done and for their willingness to pass along advice. If someone would rather not pay attention to what they write, they certainly can do that.

On the other hand, I don't really see that you contribute much other than a sort of chronic skepticism. If I want to run faster Hodgie and Malmo have offered advice. Not always specific advice, that's difficult to do if you don't know specifically who you're talking to. And you've offered?

Tom, to make it even more enjoyable, there are 2:07-2:08

Japanese runners who train slower than Wejo. You have to

experience it to understand it.

Malmo...I heard stoeies that u also used to run a few runs at some god awful slow pace as well....truth or rumour.....

must be the "other" malmo. sure as heck wasn't me.

malmo:

can you point me to BFullem's post on hill running?

Thanks

I seem to recall once Malmo was saying something about running all of his runs under 6:00 pace (or that this was normal or something) and Hodge chimed in saying "C'mon, Malmo, when you ran with me in Boston we ran 7:00 pace all the time."

Refresh my memory - it was years ago. Seeing Malmo and Hodge disagree is like watching your parents fight about how much discipline you should get - when two people who know and experienced so much don't agree it makes the rest of us feel better for being so ignorant.

Hazel say:

>I seem to recall once Malmo was saying something about running all of his runs under 6:00 pace (or that this was normal or something) and Hodge chimed in saying "C'mon, Malmo, when you ran with me in Boston we ran 7:00 pace all the time."

Refresh my memory - it was years ago. Seeing Malmo and Hodge disagree is like watching your parents fight about how much discipline you should get - when two people who know and experienced so much don't agree it makes the rest of us feel better for being so ignorant.<

I never say we ran "7 min. pace all the time"

malmo say he only run slower cause he running with me (which is true). If you view my running logs from 1979-88 you will see the exact times & mostly guesstimated distances that I ran.

You will see that I ran many miles at paces from 5:00-7:00 with track workouts, hills and many races thrown in.

I've met many wejo's and many malmo's. Regardless of the pace they ran on any given runs their training has much more similarities than differences.

've met many wejo's and many malmo's. Regardless of the pace they ran on any given runs their training has much more similarities than differences.>>

That pretty much says it all right there. We gain nothing by focusing on trivial differences.

Yeah, I think what it might have been was Malmo said he NEVER ran that slow and you disputed the letter, but not the spirit of his statement.

I have a feeling that many people who run similar race times have very different "graphs" that describe accumulating fatigue as the pace gets faster. I'll use HR as an example, not to condone the use of HRM, but because it is a fairly objective masure of effort. I bet for some people if you graph the change in HR compared to their pace, the HR changes more between 7:00 and 6:00 pace and then not so steeply thereafter whereas other people don't change much between 7:00 and 6:00 pace but then changes more steeply thereafter. But their curves (relative to their own percent of max HR) intersect at the same point, so they are pretty similar in races. For me, if I am going 6:00 pace, that is uncomfortable enough so I will just tend to go ahead and run hard (under 5:20 pace) for the rest of the run and be done with it. If I am feeling good enough so I want to run 6:00 pace, then I'll just go ahead and run hard. Personally, I rarely do any running between 5:30 and 6:40 pace. What seems to work better for me than doing a 12 miler at 6:00 pace is doing the first 7 or so at 7:00-6:40 and then the last 3-5 at 5:10-5:30 - I don't seem to accumulate any more fatigue like that than if I just run the whole thing medium hard and I think it makes me fitter. But other people I have run with seem much more comfortable at 6:00 pace than I do but no more comfortable at 5:20 pace. Like you said earlier, you just let the pace come to you and it is just going to be different for different people. So many things make a difference - I seem to be doing my easy days a good 20-30 seconds a mile faster now that it is cooler out and I feel better and recover faster doing it. I am not trying to, it is just happening.

I think the main point Wejo makes is that some people force a pace on easy days that jeopardizes more important elements like higher mileage or quality workouts. I know college guys who try to run in the low 6:00's on all their runs, but their hard days are only like :20-:30 seconds faster and they skimp on mileage because they think "running slow makes them slow" without every realizing that 6:00 pace isn't terribly fast compared to the times they want to race at. For me, everything is just in context of the week. The day after a hard workout, I might be stiff and tired at 7:20 pace. If I go several days without a programmed workout, 6:20 pace may seem comfortable. I notice for me, what constitutes "comfort" at those medium paces is all about leg and joint fatigue and not at all about cardiovascular difficulty. The constants I try to keep are the mileage and keeping a pretty good workout schedule (I have become more free-form on this owing to Malmo's advice and it is working well - impromptu hard efforts like long fartleks and "runs to the barn" more frequently and programmed workouts less frequently so that I end up with more hard efforts during the week) and I let my easy day pace vary as needed to absorb the unpredictability of the fatigue accumulated by the other two elements.