LAGAT BUSTED!!!! - Kenya Daily Nation Article

Phil. wrote:In fact if you look at the WR pace for say the 5k you'll see that it has improved at the same steady rate since the 20s!

But improvement in performance isn't linear. The performance curve will be steeper in the beginning and flatten out as we get closer to the limits. The fact that we haven't seen a great flattening out now that the record is 12:39 as opposed to when the record was, say, 15:39 is in and of itself eyebrow-raising.

Like you said, let's leave EG out of it, this is an entirely different hornets' nest.

If you talk of the women's 1500m I might be more in agreement, but there were guys like Songok from Kenya (a junior)in the men's final and we know he's not doped. Come on, he's trained by Brother Colm for God's sakes!!

Also, let me point out that when I make the reference to athletes who drastically improve their times, there is a difference to running huge pb's after long careers on the circuit (like when an athlete is older: take Adere for example or Regina Jacobs) or a young athlete who just came on the circuit straight from E.Africa. Of course the youngsters will improve dramatically and quickly (since many times they've been able to run fairly well off of bad training, or more accurately no specific training) since when they finally get someone who even knows "something" about training such as a college coach or other and they finally do enough quality work, etc., they run at their potential.

I've seen athletes who were training at "home" in Kenya and ran 13'35" or around there their first year or so in Europe and then after training correctly they got down to 13'01" almost immediately. The thing is, these kids have the base and genetics (yes, the old cliches do hold some truth) so when they start to do specific work for a particular event you can see the real athlete in them mature.

Great post Koech. We see eye to eye on this one.

Cadwallader, how stupid are you??

You wrote: ? ?Racism". Always the first and last refuge of those with no defense for someone's dishonest actions. Yes, it's racism that led Lagat to use drugs. Racism that made him get the test. ?

Did I say that Lagat?s bust was due to racism??? WELL??? NO, dimwit. I said the comments on this board are FULL OF IT. You can read, right? And that is exactly what Koech said too. Wow, great job at twisting things around a little bit. Oh, and your logic is superb, just because some people do too quickly and incorrectly bring up charges of racism, that means that ANY time the word is used, it must be BS. Yup, you win, there is ZERO racism left in the world. Oh, except against white males, THEY are the ones face some much unfair hatred and bias in this world today. That is the new white/male (often Republican) cry of today. It?s a scary backlash. (case in point, Zatopecker wrote: ?If there is any racism, it is those that don't want to question the Africans because it would be politically incorrect.? What scared little white boy).

And Edith, you can read too, right?? Or was leaving out one of my words in you quote of mine intentional?

YOU wrote: ?EGOCENTRIC NATIONALISM ? Kevin Sullivan is from the same town - Brantford, Ontario, Canada - as Wayne Gretzky. He grew up on the same street as Gretzky.?

BUT?.I actually wrote: ?NO RACISM OR EGOCENTRIC NATIONALISM?? See the ?RACISM? part you left out??? Sully is white last time I checked. Since you are slow of mind, I will repeat the point: several people were saying that the best clean performers must either be WHITE runners (Sully, Marius) or US runners (Torres). In other words, all Africans were dopers, and all white (Racist) & US (egocentric nationalism) were clean and the best. You still with me???

And now I will have to lighten things up a bit. I think Mr Canova made a mistake (he made a few) with his use of the English language(but his ideas were still elegant). But sometimes mistakes tell the truth better than the correct usages. I think Mr Canova MEANT to say (and this was quoted by ?Just the Facts Ma'am?) ? ?..always remembering that never a donkey can become a racing horse.? But he actually wrote ??always remembering that never a HONKEY can become a racing horse.? :-)

That is TOO funny, and TOO true. In world of running the whites(honkeys) are certainly the donkey(s), while the Africans are the ?racing horse(s).? And drugs are NOT the reason why this is. Talent, environment, & hard work are.

The guy is guilty!!! - a lot of the other top athletes have been questioning the small volume of training lagat does in relation to the performances he produces. Dont think he is the only one who athletes are suspicious of either. You will all be suprised!!!

Just because he is Kenyan doesnt mean is clean and because he is dirty doesnt mean all Kenyans are. Loads of Kenyans study in the US and have european or american agents who have seen it all and done it all before in relation to performance enhancing drugs.

Here is another rumour which is not confirmed but apparently 8 athletes tested postitive in the 1992 100m world champs final in Tokyo but this info was buried by iaaf as the consequences of this becomming public would end athletics as a sport - not that that hasnt happened already

"Someone still has to explain to me how distance runners profit from using nandrolon."

Same reason runners in the past have taken synthetic steroids. It increases protein synthesis. Body builders on steroids may see some muscle growth just from the steroid itself because of the amount they are taking, but the majority of improvement will come by a reduction in recovery time. Increase protein synthesis and you increase muscle recovery. The amount needed simply to reduce recovery time is much smaller than the amount needed to increase muscle mass, something like 10-100 times smaller.

WADA's Testosterone to Epitosterone ratio limit is 6:1, yet the average high for a male is 5:1. Let's say you have a male with a T/E ratio of 4:1 (probably common among distance runners who naturally possess less muscle mass and quite possibly less testosterone than most males). This athlete could artifically boost his T/E ratio to 6:1 during his peak training then when he's tapering for key races he simply cycles off the steroid and in a few days nothing remains of the synthetic substance.

I'm not sure how they test for Nandrolone since it's a naturally occuring substance in the body. They may simply just test for a ratio or % value.

Alan

Is this going to hurt the sales of your book, Mr. Entine?

I think that human stupidity has no limits. I'm accused of diverting things, and also to be an African hidden back an invented name ! At first, I never diverted anything. The fact that Bernard was positive at the test of sample A is a fact, and I never tried to cancel. My opinion, knowing very well Bernard and James Templeton, is that never he took anything intentionally, and that James is in any case one of the more pure agents in the world (not only because he's my friend : he's my friend because is pure and with very high moral values !). We speak many times about athletics, and I can guarantee that he has yet ideals and doesn't go for money (like some other else). Anyway, this is for confirming my personal opinion. But in my intervent I wanted to refuse the idea that, when an athlete is positive, ALL the athletes are involved in the same mistakes. I think that it's not possible sharing people in big categories : black, white, communist, christians, muslims, bad and good people, giving them a "plate". A man is a man, and it's important what he has inside his mind, and what he really is, not the appearance. So, I refuse the idea of DOPED AFRICANS, because I know Africa and Africans athletes, living with them long time every year. I wish to give you a suggestion : before speaking, be sure about your knowledge of the problem ; in other case, you seem very stupid persons.

For example, you don't know me, thinking that I don't exist. Instead, I'm exactly Renato Canova, italian coach and lecturer of IAAF. For IAAF, I have seminaries around the world, and courses for African and Asian coaches. I wrote, for example, the only official book about Marathon for the IAF (together my friend, the italian scientist Enrico Arcelli) called "Marathon : a scientific approach", published directly by IAF on 2000 (that you can require to the IAF, if you want).

I'm in first line against doping, in my courses, my articles, my books, in every my action, and of course while training my athletes. But the difference between you and me is that I don't believe that is possible to improve thru doping so much as thru training. I'm a methodologist, and can say that modern training is now different from the past. I'm not a chatter like you. This one is my passion, my profession, my life, and I cannot agree people thinking, about track and field, that it's an activity for drug addicts. Think in more positive way, and train for improving without any external help ! Your strenght is in yourselves, not in some drug !

Cadwallader, how stupid are you??

Mr.Entine, is this a trick question?

Overall, the graph of world record progression will form an asymptote, however there will be athletes/incidents where bigger chunk is taken off.

In the 5,000m/10,000m races we're getting very different athletes then years before. I was discussing this very topic with a former world class runner. Never before were 3:31 1500m runners running teh 10,000m and marathon. And never before did those same 3:31 1500m runners train for 10k/marathon but also raced 1500m and up. That combination is the exact model desired for ultimate performances at 5 and 10k.

Most other places, if you have the potential to run 3:31 you're running the 800m/1,500m and that's it. No chance of 5,000m, 10,000m or marathons.

Your parameters are too narrow. It's easy to arrive at any answer you wish by arbitrarily setting up your data. You should know better, and I suspect you do.

Wasahog wrote:

Watch these runners after the finish. They cross the finish line after setting a PR, take three steps, and carry on a conversation like they just rolled out of bed. The agents should coach them on how to look tired, breath hard, put their hands on their knees, and roll their eyes around. The 1500m had no clean athletes in the finals.

I'll bet the athletes are doped, but even on the HS level, when a guy wins or places in a big meet, it's the adrenaline that keeps him up on his feet, he's on a high, as I'd bet a lot of guys are after winning a WC medal.

Steve Lactic wrote:

I know for certain that most of these guys take out-of-competition tests or voluntarily give there whereabouts to the anti-doping department of the IAAF, ona regular basis, so that the testers can drop by when they want to, to make a surprise test. This goes for during and after the summer season.

No you don't for certain when it comes to E. Africans. Several "testers" have commented on the difficulties they have encountered while going after people, especially when trying to get tests from E. Africans. The Ngugi story is hilarious, and ALL TOO COMMON.

Atanvarno wrote:

BTW, Dieter and Saidi-Sief were busted for Nandrolon. Someone still has to explain to me how distance runners profit from using nandrolon.

In theory, steroids are supposed to help with recovery. The story on Dieter was that he was taking Andro (OTC supplement) but was popped, because it converts to Nandralone once in the body. Which he probably knew. He's still cleaner in some ways than most of his African competition of the day, who had been juiced on EPO for years.

Bon Journo Signor Canova,

Your steadfast support for the Kenyan runners and the current debacle regarding Lagat seemed to put you and your work in defensive position - hoping you aren't some imposter. In any case, apart from the usual AK claims of lack of education about drugs crap don't you agree with me that performance enhancement is part and parcel of the athletics industry as a business today?

You see if the performance of say, Lagat or whatever, failing the whole industry existence become at stake. Nike/Addidas/NB etc shoes sale goes down which is the same as runner?s income goes down. That in it self takes its own life ? invitations to the biggest meet dries up, past unpaid bills pile up, agents, coaches, team doctors and staffers pay goes down. You see how it trickles down to the bottom level of the hierarchy. So how do you stop all that from happening?

You go figure. In the mean time I go back to work while nursing my stress fracture.

Arrivederci

Spiegelstein wrote:

Your parameters are too narrow. It's easy to arrive at any answer you wish by arbitrarily setting up your data. You should know better, and I suspect you do.

"Spiegelstein" - first of all I assume that we know each other and that you are a bastard.

Anyway, I didn?t try to manipulate anything, I was just curious and wanted to see what a simple linear fit would find. It?s not like I?m trying to get this stuff published, I was just having some fun? take from it what you will. I?d be very interested to see a more rigorous analysis.

Anyway, to me the question of EPO in the sport is not about the people who are setting the world records. There are always going to be one or two genetic freaks in the world who have the total package and are able to run times a generation ahead of everyone else. Just look at Ryun, Coe (in the 800), Johnson (in the 200), etc. The fact that in the 90?s there were so many people within striking distance of the world records makes me think that drugs were/are very prevalent. Wasn?t there that one 5k with 11 runners going under 13? In my mind those are the guys who are probably doping, guys who could be 50th in the world clean but are 10th or 15th in the world dirty.

- Spigelman

c'mon guys we all knows what goes around with IAAF they are out there to impress the public and will pick on any one just to show they are doing something you know. Lagat is clean but just like Kobe bryant celebrity scenario is surrounded by myths . Benard just Go haed and do your thing. What a coincidence just when bernard was out to beat elgoeruj is the time he tested positive aha

say some guys he is dammmn clean !!!!!!

look, i've told you....no african man has ever run under 3:50 without epo.....these frauds, these bastards from kenya, ethiopia, and morocco can not beat our salazars, our jim ryuns, our frank shorters, without their goddamn drugs!

Spigelman wrote:

"Spiegelstein" - first of all I assume that we know each other and that you are a bastard.

No, you don't know me. You're just irritated because I have your number :).

LA/pure running wrote:

Great post Koech. We see eye to eye on this one.

Cadwallader, how stupid are you??

You wrote: ? ?Racism". Always the first and last refuge of those with no defense for someone's dishonest actions. Yes, it's racism that led Lagat to use drugs. Racism that made him get the test. ?

In world of running the whites(honkeys) are certainly the donkey(s), while the Africans are the ?racing horse(s).? And drugs are NOT the reason why this is. Talent, environment, & hard work are.

I don't know about Cadwallader's take on your sorry ass, but all we do is see you constantly bringing up race, and then running white people down. The guys that say you are full of self hate are correct. You are the typical example of a brainwashed college boy who's never set foot in the real world. Oh, you can make yourself feel good, just as you were taught in school, by making disparaging remarks about whites, and then looking around for approval from any non-white who may be standing by. "Didja hear me! I said 'Whitey is bad!', will you pat me on the head? I'll kiss your ass too."

The shrillness and panic you display over Lagat and Chepchumba being caught is quite revealing in terms of character. Or lack of.