It was indoors, in a non championship distance, and he finished behind a runner who was lackluster in these world championships. It may have looked like a positive blip on his screen but it was still just another loss, which he has specialised in for all but virtually one race a year in the last two years.
What would you say if this was Ingebrigtsen's competitive record over a year (barring injury)? That he was probably finished?
Great md runners in the past - Ovett, Coe, Cram, Morceli, El G, Bekele, Farah etc - dominated at their peak. They didn't just turn out one winning performance in a year. He simply looks like another Ramzi or Katir.
I disagree. -Sometimes times matter way more than a win. In a way it’s fair to say that Hocker voluntarily gave away the win in that 3000m in order to make it faster (he could maybe have stayed behind Fisher and thus outperformed him. But he chose honesty and a contribution to a new WR.)
Jakob did by the way the same in his 3000m in 2020 against Kiplimo. -He skipped the draft he had in the last lap to try to break the European record, and didn’t care that the Ugandaen thus easier could win. Honesty, getting what is inside out in times is far more important in most races than winning.
You are mentioning among others Ovett. But he prioritised racing against athletes (like Wessinghage and Scott) he knew he had an edge on. And he let them do all the work. The problem with that (among a lot of things) is that you might end up with a lot of wins and bad times. And although I am an outlier when it comes to appreciating times I’m not totally alone -just see how Mo Farah and yes, Ovett, have been left in a sort of shadow compared to guys whose merits are both wins and times…
To be fair to Ovett he broke some WR’s. But they were weak. F.x his 2mile record after letting Rono drafting him the whole race. -What about contributing a little, and not being so god damn afraid of losing. Clearly Ovett could have run faster that day. And kickers like him, but also our fellow hero Snell (in his 1500m OG win) can be considered failures in that respect that they had a kick (they shouldn’t have had it if they had portion out their resources correctly) -who knows what Snell’s time could have been if he hadn’t saved himself for that unnecessary and “stupid” kick..!?
I think great md runners would typically have a great kick. That was certainly Ovett. (These athletes also held the world records in their respective eras. Hocker doesn't.) But the point is they would win more often than not. Ovett had a fabulous unbeaten record at a certain point in his career. Hocker, by comparison, hardly ever wins - except in a global championship final. It's too obvious what is going on.
I think great md runners would typically have a great kick. That was certainly Ovett. (These athletes also held the world records in their respective eras. Hocker doesn't.) But the point is they would win more often than not. Ovett had a fabulous unbeaten record at a certain point in his career. Hocker, by comparison, hardly ever wins - except in a global championship final. It's too obvious what is going on.
Contrary to most on these boards I don’t pay too much attention to winning,. Of course it matters, but so does the context, the time and who you meet, and their shape…
It was harder for Ovett when he had to meet Coe and Cram (than f.x a Wessinghage, Scott and a Walker who was over the top) -that doesn’t mean he couldn’t beat them (and he was also unlucky with injuries and sickness), but it meant that he ran in a very competitive period, just like Hocker. And with a Jakob, Nuguse, Kerr and now also a lot of upcoming talent, it’s unrealistic to expect a winning rate for Cole above 50%.
Hocker has to do more of what he has started to do (the same with Kerr and Nuguse): Become a complete athlete (good or very good at a range of events), and stabilise his performance all year through, instead of this stupid peaking or kicking thing. But it’s very hard with a Jakob-Goat- material in the game.
Yes, great athletes kick great. But they’re not great because they kick great (Beamish still isn’t great -but has of course the potential- despite his indoors and outdoors WC wins) -it’s the other way around: They kick great because they’re overall great runners. (Beamish great if he kicks great in a fast race). And don’t give me the myth about guys like McSweyn and Ron Clarke who never could kick -I watched the latter in a 3000m against Keino; yes, he was without any chances when the Kenyan kicked the last lap, but he still finished very decently (Clarke), behind a guy who could kick because his pb in the 3k was so much faster. (Not because of some magical kicking ability). So what do you think would have happened if Keino was in Clarke’s 5000m WR race, and somehow was able to draft on the Aussie -I’ll guarantee you this WR holder would have slowed the pace a second or two, and then kicked the living daylight out of his competitor..!
Ron Clarke but also Jim Ryun are good examples of how unfair you are against Hocker. Clark wasn’t always so consistent, but first and foremost he was punished in the champs by things out of his control, e.g stupid altitude champs. And the same with Ryun. -The latter’s short career is of course on him, but reducing his legacy because of a fall and unfair altitude games are just plain wrong. One has to stress what these athletes were overall, and not go down to formality. The same with Hocker -he is clearly building something now; that’s the point, not his overall winning count in an extremely competitive aerie.
This post was edited 9 minutes after it was posted.
I think great md runners would typically have a great kick. That was certainly Ovett. (These athletes also held the world records in their respective eras. Hocker doesn't.) But the point is they would win more often than not. Ovett had a fabulous unbeaten record at a certain point in his career. Hocker, by comparison, hardly ever wins - except in a global championship final. It's too obvious what is going on.
Contrary to most on these boards I don’t pay too much attention to winning,. Of course it matters, but so does the context, the time and who you meet, and their shape…
It was harder for Ovett when he had to meet Coe and Cram (than f.x a Wessinghage, Scott and a Walker who was over the top) -that doesn’t mean he couldn’t beat them (and he was also unlucky with injuries and sickness), but it meant that he ran in a very competitive period, just like Hocker. And with a Jakob, Nuguse, Kerr and now also a lot of upcoming talent, it’s unrealistic to expect a winning rate for Cole above 50%.
Hocker has to do more of what he has started to do (the same with Kerr and Nuguse): Become a complete athlete (good or very good at a range of events), and stabilise his performance all year through, instead of this stupid peaking or kicking thing. But it’s very hard with a Jakob-Goat- material in the game.
Yes, great athletes kick great. But they’re not great because they kick great (Beamish still isn’t great -but has of course the potential- despite his indoors and outdoors WC wins) -it’s the other way around: They kick great because they’re overall great runners. (Beamish great if he kicks great in a fast race). And don’t give me the myth about guys like McSweyn and Ron Clarke who never could kick -I watched the latter in a 3000m against Keino; yes, he was without any chances when the Kenyan kicked the last lap, but he still finished very decently (Clarke), behind a guy who could kick because his pb in the 3k was so much faster. (Not because of some magical kicking ability). So what do you think would have happened if Keino was in Clarke’s 5000m WR race, and somehow was able to draft on the Aussie -I’ll guarantee you this WR holder would have slowed the pace a second or two, and then kicked the living daylight out of his competitor..!
Ron Clarke but also Jim Ryun are good examples of how unfair you are against Hocker. Clark wasn’t always so consistent, but first and foremost he was punished in the champs by things out of his control, e.g stupid altitude champs. And the same with Ryun. -The latter’s short career is of course on him, but reducing his legacy because of a fall and unfair altitude games are just plain wrong. One has to stress what these athletes were overall, and not go down to formality. The same with Hocker -he is clearly building something now; that’s the point, not his overall winning count in an extremely competitive aerie.
Clarke had 17 world records to Hocker's zero. Clarke won a lot of races; Hocker wins very few. Clarke faltered in championship finals - Tokyo, Kingston and Mexico (he had no chance at altitude). That is the asterisk on an otherwise great career.
Ryun was great for only three years. He hardly lost in that period and destroyed world records. The greatest md runners I have seen held the world records but also could run any kind of race - fast, slow, tactical. They showed the strongest finish, whether it was a long drive for home (Elliott, Cram, El G) or devastating kick (Snell, Ryun, Coe). Hocker loses most of his races and has no world records. He won't get any since he has shown he can only peak once a year in a global championship.
Clarke had 17 world records to Hocker's zero. Clarke won a lot of races; Hocker wins very few. Clarke faltered in championship finals - Tokyo, Kingston and Mexico (he had no chance at altitude). That is the asterisk on an otherwise great career.
Ryun was great for only three years. He hardly lost in that period and destroyed world records. The greatest md runners I have seen held the world records but also could run any kind of race - fast, slow, tactical. They showed the strongest finish, whether it was a long drive for home (Elliott, Cram, El G) or devastating kick (Snell, Ryun, Coe). Hocker loses most of his races and has no world records. He won't get any since he has shown he can only peak once a year in a global championship.
My point was that one can be an all time great even if one loses some important races. That said you are of course right to point out that Hocker can’t be compared to these all time greats, yet. But he hasn’t even turned 25. Time will tell.
This post was edited 52 seconds after it was posted.