Kevin Lopez who won that race has a pb of 3:34.8 and was 30 years old. Neither of the guys who finished 2nd or 3rd have ever broken 3:33. Yet Rekrunner claims Katir was in 3:32 shape.
No Mechal or Ordenez, the two best Spanish 1500 guys at the time in that race either.
The race was won in 3:44, with Katir in 3:46. Less than 12 months later and Katir would run two back to back 3:43 1500ms in winning the 3000m at a cold and wet Gateshead without breaking a sweat, screaming 'VAMOs, VAMOS' and mocking the Brojos and the LetsRun forum by pointing his fingers at his ears.
What did I claim?
I don't care if you lie to yourself, but please don't make up lies about what I claimed.
Well yes, it was another poster who made the claim that Katir might have run 3:32/33 in 2020 if he had more racing opportunities. That post was upvoted 22 votes and downvoted zero times. Did you abstain? Do you disagree with him? You DID deny that 3:36 was his true potential in 2020. So you think his potential was 3:35? 3:34?
Two years ago he ran faster in Florence. It really isn't a normal progression is it? You go from sub-elite to Olympic gold contender in both 1500 and 5000m in the space of one year at age 23, then regress a bit over the next 2 years?
Normal progression is not going to attach to everyone, given the numbers in track and field. That's what the doping dummies fail to grasp. There are going to be outliers in every direction.
The cynics desperately try to shove every case into the same box and same conclusion. It's like some of the true crime shows when certain detectives are hopelessly overmatched and never should have attained that position in the first place.
I don't care if you lie to yourself, but please don't make up lies about what I claimed.
Well yes, it was another poster who made the claim that Katir might have run 3:32/33 in 2020 if he had more racing opportunities. That post was upvoted 22 votes and downvoted zero times. Did you abstain? Do you disagree with him? You DID deny that 3:36 was his true potential in 2020. So you think his potential was 3:35? 3:34?
I think I don't have enough information to want to guess. My claim was that deciding 3:36, or 3:34, or 3:32, or whatever needs to consider many factors in a complete context for that runner and his performances, and no one seems to be doing that seriously.
Normally for athletes, the coach and the athlete will have planned out the seasons's goals and training, and timing when to peak. Was 2020, and 2021 the same training and goals? 2020 was a strange year globally. How was his training during Covid? Was 3:36.59 (3 weeks before the Spanish Championship) before the planned peak? What was the weather, temperature, wind, pacing, drafting for each race? 2021 was in Monaco in July, while 2020 was in Spain in August/September. What shoes did he wear? We can see from his WA profile that he was producing superior performances (WA "score") in January 2021, for 3000m (indoors) and in June 5000m, suggesting a focus on longer endurance.
There seems to be a tendency to falsely create a dichotomy, with one under-analyzed "clean" scenario, which if enough holes are poked in it, conveniently leaves the default (unanalyzed) "doping" alternative explanation as the only possibility left. No one likes to think about this, but should we take for granted that doping can bring 8 seconds in the 1500m for a 3:36 runner? Keep in mind how few people broke 3:30 since Coe and Cram did in the mid-80s. If "doping" could bring 8 seconds, we should have seen a lot more than a couple dozen runners joining the sub-3:30 club (in 2018, I counted only 26), and a lot more than two non-Africans Nick Willis and Fernando Cacho, before the recent faster times in the era of super-shoes.
This post was edited 3 minutes after it was posted.
Reason provided:
Minor clarifications
Normal progression is not going to attach to everyone, given the numbers in track and field. That's what the doping dummies fail to grasp. There are going to be outliers in every direction.
The cynics desperately try to shove every case into the same box and same conclusion. It's like some of the true crime shows when certain detectives are hopelessly overmatched and never should have attained that position in the first place.
It's not even cynical to suggest someone like Katir is probably doping.
Massive doping sport - check
Massive doping event - check
Massive doping country - check (x2)
Massive drop in performance as an adult - check
Don't know who his agent/coach/manager/doctor is but I'm going to presume they have a 'history'.
How can anyone look at this and say 'Hmmm, probably clean'.
Andy Butchart would’ve run 7:22 but he was soaking wet and nearly fell down 4 times due to the tornado-like winds. He also ran multiple laps in lane 3 due to the rain-soaked track.
I am of this thought as well. Katir is my favorite runner but I also believe that every pro runner dopes a little bit; but If Katir says he is clean then I believe him. He trains very hard and is very technical in his methods; i'm pretty sure he trains at a Spanish facility at high altitude. Katir is good at competing in very competitive fields as well so his time drop seems like a natural occurrence as 2021 saw him competing in those international caliber fields like at Florence and Gateshead.
Normal progression is not going to attach to everyone, given the numbers in track and field. That's what the doping dummies fail to grasp. There are going to be outliers in every direction.
The cynics desperately try to shove every case into the same box and same conclusion. It's like some of the true crime shows when certain detectives are hopelessly overmatched and never should have attained that position in the first place.
It's not even cynical to suggest someone like Katir is probably doping.
Massive doping sport - check
Massive doping event - check
Massive doping country - check (x2)
Massive drop in performance as an adult - check
Don't know who his agent/coach/manager/doctor is but I'm going to presume they have a 'history'.
How can anyone look at this and say 'Hmmm, probably clean'.
I think I don't have enough information to want to guess. My claim was that deciding 3:36, or 3:34, or 3:32, or whatever needs to consider many factors in a complete context for that runner and his performances, and no one seems to be doing that seriously.
Normally for athletes, the coach and the athlete will have planned out the seasons's goals and training, and timing when to peak. Was 2020, and 2021 the same training and goals? 2020 was a strange year globally. How was his training during Covid? Was 3:36.59 (3 weeks before the Spanish Championship) before the planned peak? What was the weather, temperature, wind, pacing, drafting for each race? 2021 was in Monaco in July, while 2020 was in Spain in August/September. What shoes did he wear? We can see from his WA profile that he was producing superior performances (WA "score") in January 2021, for 3000m (indoors) and in June 5000m, suggesting a focus on longer endurance.
There seems to be a tendency to falsely create a dichotomy, with one under-analyzed "clean" scenario, which if enough holes are poked in it, conveniently leaves the default (unanalyzed) "doping" alternative explanation as the only possibility left. No one likes to think about this, but should we take for granted that doping can bring 8 seconds in the 1500m for a 3:36 runner? Keep in mind how few people broke 3:30 since Coe and Cram did in the mid-80s. If "doping" could bring 8 seconds, we should have seen a lot more than a couple dozen runners joining the sub-3:30 club (in 2018, I counted only 26), and a lot more than two non-Africans Nick Willis and Fernando Cacho, before the recent faster times in the era of super-shoes.
Holy cow, what a bunch of nonsense. You should apologize for that obvious trolling, or at least be ashamed, very ashamed.
Normal progression is not going to attach to everyone, given the numbers in track and field. That's what the doping dummies fail to grasp. There are going to be outliers in every direction.
The cynics desperately try to shove every case into the same box and same conclusion. It's like some of the true crime shows when certain detectives are hopelessly overmatched and never should have attained that position in the first place.
He run in Oslo and Norwegian swore that he will test positive in that country because of the "seriousness" of the people.
Already 2 years and the guy is subject of harassement of doping accusations in LRC.
Morocco knocked out of the African Cup of Nations, and now Katir finally suspended. Not a good couple of weeks for Passant. Hope he is OK, as he can be a bit volatile at the best of times.
Ironically, that thread was deleted by our volunteer mod who is the wife of the guy who actually called Katir out on social media later in the year as a doper and whom Katir responded to by saying he'd sleep with his wife.
You can't make this shi* up. The running world is small indeed.
This post was edited 4 minutes after it was posted.
