I’m not sure. A poster “former sub 14” or something like that had a friend who worked out with them for a stint in flagstaff. He said they pretty much rand the same speed for all intervals. I think they do longer in the AM and shorter in the PM due to fatigue.
My sense is they are working on improving LT2/CS with all these workouts.
As the other poster said, the hills are VO2 work. So they have 2 days dedicated to large volume pushing up LT and 1 pushing VO2 (and also ensuring they don’t completely lose ability to produce lactate…they are 1500 runners).
Interestingly the Schumacher base period is a large volume threshold workout and a VO2 workout (200s with short rest are essentially Billat 30/30s). Obviously the specifics are different but there is some similarity
For people interested in learning more, type in “Simen Halle Haugen Podcast” on google. The podcast from Conversations About Running features him where he talks about the Norwegian system extensively. What they do sounds much more like the current model and what Jakob has been known to do. It helps understanding how they structure things overall and how they interpret lactate measurements. For being so young, he is very well spoken and detailed.
Bonus: one of the podcast hosts actually did a stint with that particular Norwegian group and had similar experiences to my friend (running threshold too hard, not recovering, etc.). Do NOT do these with your team unless they are well disciplined.
I've now completely read all 11 pages of the thread, fascinating stuff, but it has left me wanting more.
For starters, is there a good resource for how to train taking lactate levels yourself? Also what source (in the US) can I buy a good analyzer? Does anyone have a good tutorial?
For these threshold repeats that alot of people seem to be prescribing how much rest and total volume is the goal? IE for someone doing 30 MPW vs someone doing 70-80?
What are the pros of doing threshold repeats vs a continuous 3-4 mile run at threshold pace? On that note is there a particular "calculator" that the experts on this thread have found better than others?
Have a question regarding HR/heat when training in this fashion.
Based on recent times, my Daniels MP is 6:14/mi. After reading through this entire thread I have gathered that a 5-6 x mile, 1:00R workout should be run around that pace (if we are following this style of training).
I ran a 30’ TT and averaged the HR for the last 20’ earlier this year and it was 173bpm. I have a current max of 192bpm. I am 40.
I ran the above workout today. It was 84 degrees, 70 degree dew point so I dropped the pace to 6:28-6:33. The first 3 1/2 reps felt good. Think HR was in mid-high 160s. The last two reps my HR hit 180. My legs never felt bad, but my HR went through the roof.
If I am following this style of training do I listen to my legs or my HR? Bc that HR was WELL above the threshold.
For starters, is there a good resource for how to train taking lactate levels yourself? Also what source (in the US) can I buy a good analyzer? Does anyone have a good tutorial?
Good exucation on that site too. Look up Jan Olbrecht and his swim training to see how lactate values can be used for training.
I've probably spent $280 for the meter, $60 on two sets of calibration solutions (they expire) and about $400 on test strips. I've done several ramp tests and experiments at home to completely justify the price. You can pay $150-$250 to be tested once, or spend $500-800 and some time to learn how to test yourself and you can collect far more actionable data.
I use the lactate plus and have gone through about 250 strips since getting the meter 2 years ago. It's super easy to take a sample, but you have to think out how to test and get good blood for samples.
I find it far easier to take lactate samples when I'm riding or running indoors, for obvious reasons. Outdoors, I actually take a couple 5-gal buckets to carry my metabolic cart, lancets, alcohol, paper towels, log book, etc.
I just did 4 workouts over the past month to study my VLaMax and how high I can get my lactate with 4-5 all-out efforts (100m, 200m, 300y, 300m) separated by 6-8 minutes of rest. I also collect VO2 and VCO2 data, so I can correlate several things.
I've now completely read all 11 pages of the thread, fascinating stuff, but it has left me wanting more.
For starters, is there a good resource for how to train taking lactate levels yourself? Also what source (in the US) can I buy a good analyzer? Does anyone have a good tutorial?
For these threshold repeats that alot of people seem to be prescribing how much rest and total volume is the goal? IE for someone doing 30 MPW vs someone doing 70-80?
What are the pros of doing threshold repeats vs a continuous 3-4 mile run at threshold pace? On that note is there a particular "calculator" that the experts on this thread have found better than others?
To get the control necessary, and also the logistics of the lactate testing, it would probably be best to start off using a treadmill.
I agree. My first few samples were several resting lactate levels at my dining room table. Then I moved to collecting samples on my bike trainer (I have a large table on wheels that I use to keep everything nearby). And now I collect data anywhere. I've only encountered 1 or 2 error readings so far out of all my samples (<1%).
If you don't have access to a treadmill, then a track is a great option. Field data is more representative than indoor/lab data, in my opinion.
I've now completely read all 11 pages of the thread, fascinating stuff, but it has left me wanting more.
For starters, is there a good resource for how to train taking lactate levels yourself? Also what source (in the US) can I buy a good analyzer? Does anyone have a good tutorial?
For these threshold repeats that alot of people seem to be prescribing how much rest and total volume is the goal? IE for someone doing 30 MPW vs someone doing 70-80?
What are the pros of doing threshold repeats vs a continuous 3-4 mile run at threshold pace? On that note is there a particular "calculator" that the experts on this thread have found better than others?
the pros for repeats is control. you can control the session and variables more with reps than just guessing on a continuous run where youre going mire by RPE and only secondarily by HR or lactate.
with 172, id used 167 HR as your target and soft ceiling for threshold workouts to be safe
Id follow HR and definitely slow things down on hotter days. That workout was likely way over threshold for you, more like a vo2 max workout
I would tend to agree but I’ve run a recent HM at 6:08 pace. So 6:28s, even on a hot day seems to be well below my threshold. I guess with the heat I can just throw pace out the window and pay attention to what my HR is doing?
Your heart rate will be higher when you run in the heat due to decreased peripheral pressure from blood being diverted to the skin for cooling. If the situation for a workout is variable it’s usually best to use perceived exertion to determine pace
with 172, id used 167 HR as your target and soft ceiling for threshold workouts to be safe
Id follow HR and definitely slow things down on hotter days. That workout was likely way over threshold for you, more like a vo2 max workout
I would tend to agree but I’ve run a recent HM at 6:08 pace. So 6:28s, even on a hot day seems to be well below my threshold. I guess with the heat I can just throw pace out the window and pay attention to what my HR is doing?
Understood but you have to throw pace out the window and focus on ‘stress’ which is all you’re really measuring with lactate as well, physiological stress.
With heat and dew point that high that could be easily worth 20 seconds a mile. plus, things are day to day. if you are really going to focus on intensity control you want to let your body dictate how fast you go on a given day rather than arbitrarily picking a pace.
This allows yourself the ‘permission’ to slow down on your bad days and push on your good days when you might be fresher. That’s how your going to see the best adaptations from this, staying in the ‘right’ neighborhood but just adjusting effort when needed.
If you really are very keen to track progress, treadmill with a set workout or two might be best. There you can start limiting variables (terrain, heat, hydration, etc). If you are not, be conservative and go by HR
I would tend to agree but I’ve run a recent HM at 6:08 pace. So 6:28s, even on a hot day seems to be well below my threshold. I guess with the heat I can just throw pace out the window and pay attention to what my HR is doing?
Understood but you have to throw pace out the window and focus on ‘stress’ which is all you’re really measuring with lactate as well, physiological stress.
With heat and dew point that high that could be easily worth 20 seconds a mile. plus, things are day to day. if you are really going to focus on intensity control you want to let your body dictate how fast you go on a given day rather than arbitrarily picking a pace.
This allows yourself the ‘permission’ to slow down on your bad days and push on your good days when you might be fresher. That’s how your going to see the best adaptations from this, staying in the ‘right’ neighborhood but just adjusting effort when needed.
If you really are very keen to track progress, treadmill with a set workout or two might be best. There you can start limiting variables (terrain, heat, hydration, etc). If you are not, be conservative and go by HR
By heart is not so accurate anyway, until you are experienced and very well feel your body feedback. I listened podcast, and there guys told that without lactate measuring it is very easy to do double thresholds much much way faster and you will not notice it even after 1 month of training, and then, bum, overcooked, so many runners does... you have to be super patient and disciplined runner with this kind of training, that's boring too much...
Read all 11 pages of the thread, glad it (mostly) stayed on point.. this reminds me of the old days on LR when you had some good debate on training methodologies.
Really good stuff, I wish I were younger and healthier when I could experiment on myself with more threshold.
Take aways from an Old Runner:
-Not much is new under the sun. We take old training and give it new names or just confirm in the lab what coaches and athletes have found in the field.
- I can see how this could be a real benefit to HS and runners. With limited training time this allows you to get more bang for the time you can spend training AND keeps the kids from doing hours and hours of slow grinding distance runs.
- I can also see how some coaches could totally botch this and wear their kids out. They will read about 2x threshold and think well if 400s at 10k pace is good then 400s at 1M pace will be great!
- I can see how this could be a real benefit to HS and runners. With limited training time this allows you to get more bang for the time you can spend training AND keeps the kids from doing hours and hours of slow grinding distance runs.
I don't see this as a shortcut, as the Norwegian method is about supporting this threshold work with high volume easy mileage.
I just did 4 workouts over the past month to study my VLaMax and how high I can get my lactate with 4-5 all-out efforts (100m, 200m, 300y, 300m) separated by 6-8 minutes of rest. I also collect VO2 and VCO2 data, so I can correlate several things.
What is your procedure to find your vlamax with running? This is not so easy ...
- I can see how this could be a real benefit to HS and runners. With limited training time this allows you to get more bang for the time you can spend training AND keeps the kids from doing hours and hours of slow grinding distance runs.
I don't see this as a shortcut, as the Norwegian method is about supporting this threshold work with high volume easy mileage.
Shortcut? I never said that. This is probably a better use of their training time and allows for less running just for the sake of running.
Like someone else pointed out about Snell running 20 Milers, sometimes runners will run for the sake of running despite diminishing returns.
I don't see this as a shortcut, as the Norwegian method is about supporting this threshold work with high volume easy mileage.
Shortcut? I never said that. This is probably a better use of their training time and allows for less running just for the sake of running.
Like someone else pointed out about Snell running 20 Milers, sometimes runners will run for the sake of running despite diminishing returns.
This isn't really about replacing easy running. It is more should you do 6x800 at 5k pace or do 6x5 mins at a pace like 40s slower. And do it 2x week instead of once. It is the old volume matters more than intensity with in a range.
For the pros it is if I do double workouts I can do 60mins of work instead of 1 session of 45mins.....