three stripes wrote:
As OP of this thread let me get some things out of the way.
1. This thread is about Katir. It’s no use bring other athletes in to say “but you don’t say they’re doping for x reason”
2. ANY ATHLETE that makes these improvements is likely doping no matter their country.
3. I find enjoyment in this sport regardless of doping because I like running and competing
I’ve read this whole thread, looking for the most intelligent reasons that suggest Katir is an obvious doper, let alone the *most obvious* doper. Most of the reasons look like some combination of:
1) He is Spanish/Moroccan/Muslim
2) Doping is a good explanation for large improvements and fast elite times
Please correct me if I have overlooked important reasons.
The first point is some combination of all the things it is accused of: racism, xenophobism, nationalism, and anti-Muslimism.
The second point is one that, despite decades of doping and anti-doping research, is largely unproven for elite jumps in times and elite performances, especially for the elite men’s 1500m. Keep in mind, we are working with reverse logic from something proven — performance — to suggest something unproven — doping — caused it. Spain may have a long history of doping, but not a long history of elite performers over the last few decades. Similarly, Morocco and Moroccans are still doping in large numbers since the days of Ramzi — an aging example from 13 years ago — but when looking at Moroccan performances in the 1500m since El G, and Ramzi, over the last two decades, it is not easy to find an obvious pattern in recent history of doping causing breakthrough elite performances.
Why do so many people believe that doping is even a good explanation for this kind of breakthrough elite performance in the men’s 1500m, let alone the most “obvious” explanation? Whenever I point out that such a pattern has yet to be established, and that all time historical examples like Ramzi can be counted on one hand, over decades of widespread doping and easy to beat testing, the goalposts shift and all of a sudden doping just explains marginal improvements, and we must look for other non-doping reasons to explain the rest of the massive jumps in performance like Katir.
Is there a strong fixed argument, that won’t evolve as it flaws are highlighted, that relies on evidence and logic leading to solid conclusions, rather than gossip, rumor, bad faith, and a laundry list of logical fallacies? Must we rely only on fallacies like “guilt by association”, “assuming the conclusion”, and “proof by example”, motivated in part by racism/xenophobism/nationalism/anti-Muslimism?
