deena needed help

I don't disagree with you about pacing in general, but I don't understand all of the finger pointing at Clint and Deena. Is that the way we should race, probably not, but varying degrees of aid have been around our sport forever and this past weekend's race didn't deserve the scrutiny that it's received, in my opinion. Not unless the bashers plan to pick apart every aided effort.

Seriously, did Deena receive "aid" when she set her AR? I really don't recall. I know she didn't win the race, but did she have her own pacers?

I think there's more "finger pointing" in this case because, unlike virtually every other case of men aiding women in major races, this race was really close, and Verran may have affected the outcome.

Honestly, I don't know how much pacing assistance Deena had in London, so perhaps I shouldn't have referred to her as "an aided 2:21+ marathoner." I was simply responding to the earlier poster's characterization of her as a 2:19 marathoner who was trying to run a 2:18. Obviously, if you are only able to run 2:21+ at London and Chicago, where conditions are excellent and pacers (or "escorts") are generally provided for the top women, you haven't yet made the case that you're a 2:19 marathoner.

Shame on chicago Marathon for orchestrating this.

With Wejo at least he knew to stay out of the picture, can you imagine Wejo running and yelling at Paula the last mile!

We could get you to pace them....kind of a seeing eye dog. What do you think?

keefer wrote:

Shame on chicago Marathon for orchestrating this.

With Wejo at least he knew to stay out of the picture, can you imagine Wejo running and yelling at Paula the last mile!

I think personal pacemakers should be a no no unless the race explicitly oks them.

I ran with Paula for 25 miles and could have kept going with her the final mile but figured I should let her go on her own. I don't have as much of a problem with clint being with Deena during the final mile. I do think it makes for bad tv. I think also if he is with her he should not be relaying info about Dita. It just raises the question of "what is fair". Some say its unfair for Deena to have an escort at that time and not Dita. Others would say the pacer on the men's side is only with the leader and not 2nd place so its the same thing.

I think there are 3 questions raise in this thread:

1) should men pace women?

if yes:

2) how far should men's pacers go with women in a marathon?

3) should men's pacers do anything other than run on the side/in front of the women?

I think if a race is going to have pacers or escorts they should play as little a role as possible, especially the farther the race goes. Ideally they'd stop over the final 6 miles or so if it was a competitive race. In a men's race I get to see the leaders at the end, not some pacer right in front of them. I think it highlights the competition better.

If Paula wants to hire someone and say "I want to test how fast the body can go, he's going to run right in front of me every step" then fine, at least the race is saying so before hand that this is a 100% time trial for Paula.

Wejo, I like your point about having the pacers stop around 20 miles; I think that is a really good idea. That way, they can ensure that the pace is fast and let the runners battle it out over the last half hour, assuming more than one runner can stay with the rabbit for 20 miles. But it gives you the best of both worlds- a fast pace and a competitive race if more than one woman can stay with the pace.

You sound typical. Verran, paced her it was illegal, bottom line. I guess, at the end of the day, it is in a way arguable, it was close to his PR.

Clint and James and Chad were never responsible for pacing. Simply running with the women to run interference from men who may interfere with camera shots. Never pace. If the job was pacing then they did a horrible job as they faded so badly. A pacer does not stay with a fading athlete they continue to run the pace. An escort that is responsible for making sure that men don't interfere would stay with the lead athlete. That is what Clint did.

How many of you are aware of the side bet between Clint and James? Clint bet James (a decent amount of money) that if James went through 20 with Deena (as his contract read) that he could not beat Deena for the full distance. Deena was aware of this bet. James fell off of Deena at about 22. When Deena started fading, Clint was concerned about his bet as he knew that James was lurking back there. In Clints mind the race was between Deena and James, he could of cared less who won between Deena and Dita. Watch the tape. When James went by Deena with about 700 meters to go, Clint never looked back again. People all assume the worst in people. Clint knows Dita as well as he knows Deena. There was no conspiracy.

wejo wrote:

I think there are 3 questions raise in this thread:

1) should men pace women?

if yes:

2) how far should men's pacers go with women in a marathon?

3) should men's pacers do anything other than run on the side/in front of the women?

You missed a question wejo: 4) should pacing be struck from the rule books? I vote yes. I don't like extra help in races. And I don't like green eggs & ham.

oldguy wrote:

Kastor is not (and probably never will be) a 2:19 marathoner. She's an aided 2:21+ marathoner.

I think that if she had run dead-on 5:20s from the gun, allowing slight variations owing to wind, turns, etc. -- and this might have required a despotic rabbit/windshield/mobile coach demanding that she stick to this clip -- then she would very likely have run under 2:20:00 or at least broken the AR by a clean minute. In your terms I think she could be an aided 2:19+ runner. That's speculative, obviously, but it attests to her dominance in the U.S. that she held a faster pace for 3 1/2 10Ks than all but one or two American women at the national 10K road championship.

I was at the marathon on Sunday. As far as I could see, there was not an elite woman without a guy pacing her. I don't know that they had guys with them the whole time, but at least at the half marathon, I saw guys running with every top woman I saw, and most of them appeared to be talking to the women they were pacing. so I don't see such a big deal with Deena's pacing. I don't really like it that they get paced by guys, but hey- they all seemed to be getting something similar. I'd say just let it go.

Wejo makes a great point.

The way he conducted himself in pacing Radcliffe, quietly stepping aside for the finish, was quite classy.

If an event wants to bill itself as a time trial for a specific athlete, fine, let a team of eight male pacers surround the woman and usher her through perfect splits from 0-26.

On the other hand, if an event wants to claim to be an actual 'race' between competitors, pacers/escorts/coaches should absolutely step out for the last mile, or even the last 6 as Wejo suggests.

Steven Keller wrote:

Per Capita Income 2004

#2 USA $40,100

#99 Romania $7,700

Deena needed the prize money more than Dita. Dita can take her $65,000 first loser prize back across the ocean to her third world country and...

bring in electricity, open a hospital...

put in the first septic system...

find homes for all the babies in the orphanage...

hold the first flu shot clinic

You are a f***ing ignorant joke. Look a little lower on the webpage you cite, where it says that Romania's life expectancy falls only 7 years short of the U.S., even with less than 1/5 the per capita income.

Maybe Deena can buy the U.S. a public health system?

BIG BOX wrote:

On the other hand, if an event wants to claim to be an actual 'race' between competitors, pacers/escorts/coaches should absolutely step out for the last mile, or even the last 6 as Wejo suggests.

No, they can't make the claim because it's not an actual 'race' due to the presence of pacers/escorts/coaches/hired hands, etc. An actual race is devoid of those things. It is devoid of extra assistance.

where do you draw the line? wrote:

I understand those that want to question pacing/rabbiting/assistance in general, but I am tired of reading the comments that Clint and Deena were "unethical." So I ask those so quick to accuse Deena of gaining an unfair advantage where do you draw the line?

Uh, well, since you ask:

BASICALLY, WHEN AN "ESCORT" HIRED BY THE RACE TURNS AROUND AND SURVEYS ***THE COMPETITION*** AND REPORTS THE INFORMATION TO THE "ESCORTED" ATHLETE.

Is that clear enough for you?

Watch just around/after 2:16:30. If after watching this you can still say with a straight face that you think this race was clean, then we obviously have very different ideas about competitive road running.

Scott, we're totally agreed here. I guess what I'm saying is that, IF pacing/escorting is going to be a part of "races" (which it probably always will be), it should at least be banned from the closing stages.

Yeah, I know what you were after but, hey, if pacers are gonna help a little, why not allow them to help a lot? Why set limits on a practice that's already extracuricular?

you must be joking wrote:

Uh, well, since you ask:

BASICALLY, WHEN AN \"ESCORT\" HIRED BY THE RACE TURNS AROUND AND SURVEYS ***THE COMPETITION*** AND REPORTS THE INFORMATION TO THE \"ESCORTED\" ATHLETE.

Is that clear enough for you?

http://cbs2chicago.com/video?id=16841@wbbm.dayport.com&cid=33

Watch just around/after 2:16:30. If after watching this you can still say with a straight face that you think this race was clean, then we obviously have very different ideas about competitive road running.

I was about to post something to this effect...not that it makes any difference..people have been, makeing this point throughout the thread..

and there are probably still going to be 30 odd post..like.

\"Korir paced Tergat whats the diffenrence\"

as a side note, i see no problem with a hired pacer finishing with the athlete.....IF ..they are of the same sex...and are therefore both competeing for the victory...

100% agreement wrote:

How many of you are aware of the side bet between Clint and James? Clint bet James (a decent amount of money) that if James went through 20 with Deena (as his contract read) that he could not beat Deena for the full distance. Deena was aware of this bet. James fell off of Deena at about 22. When Deena started fading, Clint was concerned about his bet as he knew that James was lurking back there. In Clints mind the race was between Deena and James, he could of cared less who won between Deena and Dita. Watch the tape. When James went by Deena with about 700 meters to go, Clint never looked back again. People all assume the worst in people. Clint knows Dita as well as he knows Deena. There was no conspiracy.

I did notice something to that effect during the coverage on Sunday. I was wondering why he was sprinting past Deena so close to the finish line. Does anyone else know if this is indeed true?