Unreal Sweet 16 American GOAT Matchups: Rupp vs Meb, Centro vs Ryun, Flanagan vs. Jennings and Coburn vs. Simpson

Sorry, I wasn't paying attention earlier, but what happened to Kastor?! Definitely more impressive, IMHO, than Flanagan, Simpson, and Coburn. But, admittedly, I'm a Kastor fan-boy.

I'd go with Ryan vs. Rupp. It's so difficult to compare Ryan vs. Centrowitz because of the obvious era differences. VERY different. Amateur vs. professional. More opportunities for Centrowitz. I'm a little too young to fully appreciate Ryan and too old to fully appreciate Centrowitz, but my gut is most impressed by what Ryan did in the 60s. Absolutely remarkable, in my opinion. Centrowitz has an amazing championship record, but this era has many more opportunities and in absence of championship racing his record, at that level, is fairly so-so. Ryan was amazing across the board.

Ryun had more talent than Centro or Webb, but people need to consider overall careers. As for the East Africans, they weren’t able to produce National Record as fast as the US’s (never mind other nations) until the advent of EPO. This is a valid point despite the SJW types who will claim otherwise.

No Mary Decker, so this is null and void.

zoomx83 wrote:

No Mary Decker, so this is null and void.

She is not in the bracket but why not have the female winner go head-to-head with Mary? She would have been a 1 seed or 2 at the lowest.

I would pick Ryun Over Centro NOW, but remember Centro's career is STILL GOING, so who knows? Maybe Centro's best times and moments are ahead of him, What if Centro has a E. Kipchoge, Geb, B. Lagat type of career with Longevity at the Highest Level, Centro could go to 2028 and win Many More Medals Even Gold, He ran 13:00 for 5000 while training for the 1500 so maybe he can get The 12:53 American Record, maybe he becomes the 3rd American under 3:30 for 1500, maybe he can get the 7:29.00 American Record for 3000, 3:30.40 for 1500 and 13:00 for 5000 would indicate it is possible (Though Difficult)

Might seem Unlikely, but what if someone told you 3 Years ago Shelby Houlihan would run 3:54.99 for 1500, 8:26 indoors for 3000, and 14:34 for 5000, people who are still competing can improve and run times that make you say, do you believe so and so ran that fast? Centro could be 5 years from his prime.

Considering Ryun's career in the context of the late 60s and early 70s, yes the East Africans were not as dominating, but the fact that there were no world champs is huge and makes it seem like he's not nearly as impressive of a championship runner. His career was also oddly short (no results after age 27/28?), I can't totally figure out but probably part because there wasn't the same support for professional athletes at that point. According to Wikipedia he ran as an amateur until after the 1972 olympics. Way different world of professional running back then. Not that that automatically makes him a more impressive runner cus longevity matters, but so does the context behind that longevity or lack thereof. At any rate, his ridiculous accomplishments at such a young age tip the skills for Ryun in my mind.

And yes I think it's easy to overemphasize the 3:50 winning time for Centro's olympic gold, but it does make it more of a flukey race that just isn't quite as impressive in my mind. And re: Gault's point, 3:50 is not like a 2:08 marathon, its more like a 2:20 marathon. We'd be having a much different convo about a marathon victory if that was the winning time.

I can't figure out how to weight Lynn Jennings' accomplishments, especially in XC. How un-competitive was women's running back then?

My only fanboy pick was Webb and he was slighted with the play-in game.

I’d pick Webb head-to-head over everyone but Centro and Rupp.

rabbit run wrote:

My opinion on Centro vs. Ryun is this...it is REALLY close.

Ryun was a trailblazer, running incredible times including world records. However, nostalgia blinds people to the fact that

A. There were almost no East Africans on the circuit at the time.

B. Ryun lacked longevity.

C. Ryun lacked championship prowess.

Incredible runner, but imperfect.

Centro is an incredible racer, with 2 gold's, a silver, and a bronze, along with 4th at the Olympics.

However, he lacks blazing times.

I give Centro the nod because he's been arguably America's best miler for at least 7 years.

And just to stir the pot I'd give Ryun the nod as the better miler over Webb.

Let's tackle these arguments one at a time.

1) "There were almost no East Africans on the circuit at the time." This is true. Running was less competitive then than it is now.

2) "Ryun lacked longevity." Ryun ranked in the top 10 in the world 1500 meters 7 times, vs Centrowitz 5 times. So this is false on its face. I think you also have to take into account that one could not make a good living as a professional runner in the 1970s. A lot of runners, like Billy Mills, had relatively short careers for this reason.

3) "Ryun lacked championship prowess." He got a Olympic silver medal at 7000+ feet altitude, which is pretty good. And he fell in the 1972 Olympics. If there were a World Championships in 1967, I'm sure Ryun would have won at least one gold medal, maybe two. He was the #1 runner in the world in both the 800 and 1500 that year. (How many #1 world rankings does Centrowitz have? Zero.)

4) "[Centrowitz] lacks blazing times." This is an understatement. His PRs in the 1500 and mile are not even in the top 100 performances of all time. He is running a half century after Ryun but his mile PR is only half a second better than Ryun's.

I think a lot of young people do not appreciate how dominant Ryun was in his prime. Centrowitz is a skilled tactician, but he has never ranked higher than #5 in the world, has never won a Grand Prix meet. I mean this is not even a close call.

She defeated Derartu Tulu and Liz McColgan for title #2, if that helps.

Not mentioned in her contest bio: 39 national titles over all surfaces: indoors, outdoors, track and cross country. Most of any American ever male or female.

9 national xc titles.

misterbinzzzz wrote:

And yes I think it's easy to overemphasize the 3:50 winning time for Centro's olympic gold, but it does make it more of a flukey race that just isn't quite as impressive in my mind. And re: Gault's point, 3:50 is not like a 2:08 marathon, its more like a 2:20 marathon. We'd be having a much different convo about a marathon victory if that was the winning time.

2016 Olympic 1500m reminds me of the 2018 Boston Marathon. Mad props to Centro and Yuki--they both ran great--but these were unusual races and there was a strong element of "right place, right time." All the pieces had to fall into place. Yuki has never won another Major and never will. Centro has never won a Grand Prix race and probably never will.

By contrast, the Ryun had some "wrong place wrong time" situations. He had the misfortune of competing in an Olympics held at 7300 feet altitude. (Despite this, he still won the silver medal, which is impressive.) And his famous fall in Munich in 1972 arguably wasn't his fault.

I see a big recency bias in the Flanagan vs. Jennings matchup early voting results. Jennings has way more global titles. I saw World Cross Country as the most important race back in the day, and a much more significant race to win than any world marathon major.

Shorter v Gray- Shorter, but I'm a distance runner so I'm biased.

Meb v Rupp is close but I'd rather have Mebs resume, but I do give Rupp's NCAA titles a lot of cred too. Personally I'd have Rupp in the top 4 of all time. He won Chi, but had Rupp won either NYC or Boston it would make it easier to argue but Meb has both and an Oly medal.

Rodgers v Lagat- BR hands down, no question.

Ryun v Centro- Jim Ryun was one of the most gifted track athletes in US history. nuff said.

zoomx83 wrote:

No Mary Decker, so this is null and void.

Yup. I lost interest once I realized she was missing. I voted in the first round, but won’t be voting from here on out

rabbit run wrote:

3) "Ryun lacked championship prowess." He got a Olympic silver medal at 7000+ feet altitude, which is pretty good. And he fell in the 1972 Olympics. If there were a World Championships in 1967, I'm sure Ryun would have won at least one gold medal, maybe two. He was the #1 runner in the world in both the 800 and 1500 that year. (How many #1 world rankings does Centrowitz have? Zero.)

4) "[Centrowitz] lacks blazing times." This is an understatement. His PRs in the 1500 and mile are not even in the top 100 performances of all time. He is running a half century after Ryun but his mile PR is only half a second better than Ryun's.

Ryun also lost the Mexico Olympics to one of the most obvious doping cases in history.

3:30.4 is no joke. Faster then Webb in the 1500 and converts to 3:47.2.

Worth noting – Webb won a major European race with his 3:30 while Centro hung onto the back of the crazy Monaco race where Kiprop ran 3:26 and Farah 3:28.

NotPC wrote:

Meb v Rupp is close but I'd rather have Mebs resume, but I do give Rupp's NCAA titles a lot of cred too. Personally I'd have Rupp in the top 4 of all time. He won Chi, but had Rupp won either NYC or Boston it would make it easier to argue but Meb has both and an Oly medal.

So many people are comparing Meb the marathoner to Rupp the marathoner.

Rupp beats Meb even if he never ran a marathon in his life.

rabbit run wrote:

My opinion on Centro vs. Ryun is this...it is REALLY close.

Ryun was a trailblazer, running incredible times including world records. However, nostalgia blinds people to the fact that

A. There were almost no East Africans on the circuit at the time.

B. Ryun lacked longevity.

C. Ryun lacked championship prowess.

Incredible runner, but imperfect.

Centro is an incredible racer, with 2 gold's, a silver, and a bronze, along with 4th at the Olympics.

However, he lacks blazing times.

I give Centro the nod because he's been arguably America's best miler for at least 7 years.

And just to stir the pot I'd give Ryun the nod as the better miler over Webb.

Ryun vs. Centro was a tough call for me, mostly because of Centro's gold. At the end I went with Ryun, and I gave a lot of weight to his high school performances.

Five times under 4 in high school (the mile, not the 1600) and I consider Ryun's 3:55 far superior to Webb's 3:53. Leaving aside quality of the track, shoes, etc., Webb ran in a paced race where he only had to hang with faster runners. Ryun was running to win, not for time, in a race without official pacers.

Here is the race. Also note that the 3rd place finisher was Josef Odložil, the Olympic silver medalist. It should gives a sense of how good Ryun was as a high schooler. The announcer doesn't even mention Ryun until the beginning of the last lap when he moves into 2nd.

Lenny Leonard wrote:

NotPC wrote:

Meb v Rupp is close but I'd rather have Mebs resume, but I do give Rupp's NCAA titles a lot of cred too. Personally I'd have Rupp in the top 4 of all time. He won Chi, but had Rupp won either NYC or Boston it would make it easier to argue but Meb has both and an Oly medal.

So many people are comparing Meb the marathoner to Rupp the marathoner.

Rupp beats Meb even if he never ran a marathon in his life.

Lol no way.

Is anyone else having trouble voting? I hit "submit" but I keep getting the loading circle spinning on my page.

george oscar bluth wrote:

Lenny Leonard wrote:

So many people are comparing Meb the marathoner to Rupp the marathoner.

Rupp beats Meb even if he never ran a marathon in his life.

Lol no way.

I think Rupp is one of the best US runners ever , top 4. And I don't get into if and buts, I do KNOW that Meb won Boston, I KNOW Meb won NYC, I KNOW he has a Silver medal.