rekrunner wrote:
Another invitation -- thanks.
Staying on topic, does anyone understand why these researchers think steroids played no role for Russian women?
Steroids did play a role. The Aljazeera report last year on doping said that Russian women middle distance runners included steroids like testosterone in their programme. Runners who were achieving 1.56 doped couldn't later break 2 mins clean.
rekrunner wrote:
Another invitation -- thanks.
Staying on topic, does anyone understand why these researchers think steroids played no role for Russian women?
That's not on topic.
Armstronglivs wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
Another invitation -- thanks.
Staying on topic, does anyone understand why these researchers think steroids played no role for Russian women?
Steroids did play a role. The Aljazeera report last year on doping said that Russian women middle distance runners included steroids like testosterone in their programme. Runners who were achieving 1.56 doped couldn't later break 2 mins clean.
Yeah but that's just because they believed T made a difference. Plus we have no idea if they visited Chernobyl before or after using steroids, if they visited Lenin's tomb, if Steve Ovett is Borza's dad and if Vodka is really made from potatoes. You know , confounders.
physics defiant wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
Steroids did play a role. The Aljazeera report last year on doping said that Russian women middle distance runners included steroids like testosterone in their programme. Runners who were achieving 1.56 doped couldn't later break 2 mins clean.
Yeah but that's just because they believed T made a difference. Plus we have no idea if they visited Chernobyl before or after using steroids, if they visited Lenin's tomb, if Steve Ovett is Borza's dad and if Vodka is really made from potatoes. You know , confounders.
Drat. Confound it!
bait switcher wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
Another invitation -- thanks.
Staying on topic, does anyone understand why these researchers think steroids played no role for Russian women?
That's not on topic.
and its not an invite....only a piece of sh*t narcissist cant "SEE" that im mocking you and insulting your annoying bullsh*t.....so no not an invite for your "beliefs". here is an idea gary, make like the corona virus and go away
rekrunner wrote:
Why just "blood doping"? What about the "Duchess Cocktail", a mixture of three steroids?
The "Duchess Cocktail" (oxandrolone, methenolone, and trenbolone)was used exclusively at Sochi and not so much with the Russian mid-d & distance runners:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/russia-drugs-sochi-athletes-performance-2016-5%3fampThe Russian women were using turinbol as their primary androgen in conjunction with EPO use. One of the steroids in the "Duchess Cocktail," oxandrolone or Anavar, was used in some cases. For example, per the ARD-recordings, 800m specialist Savinova (Dague & London gold - 10th all time) mentions not wanting to use turinbol or testosterone because of the concerns with "growing a beard" and developing a "male voice." Her coached switched her to the less androgenic but more anabolic oxandrolone. Poistagova also said she used oxandrolone and EPO in the lead-up to the London Games.
So, from the evidence we have the doping programs used by the Russian women which is primarily a cocktail of EPO and turinbol and/or oxandrolone. Three of their top runners were not only found guilty of ABP-hematological anomalies (99.9 specificity) violations, but had a secondary violation testing positive for turinbol:
Zaripova (SC) Dague & London gold (10th all time) - ABP violation & a re-test from London positive for turinbol.
Chernova (Heptathlon) Dague gold/London bronze - ABP violation & ae-test from London for turinbol.
Abitova (10,000/marathon) EC gold & silver (40th all time) ABP violation & a re-test from Beijing for turinbol.
There doesn't seem to be any evidence of blood transfusion practices with them during that time frame per the recordings - just EPO & the steroids. In McLaren, marathoner Shobukhova mentions using transfusions around the time frame when she won 2011 Chicago running the 2nd fastest marathon ever at that time. The results were annulled for an ABP-hematological anomalies violation.
Let's get to the bottom of this wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
Why just "blood doping"? What about the "Duchess Cocktail", a mixture of three steroids?
The "Duchess Cocktail" (oxandrolone, methenolone, and trenbolone)was used exclusively at Sochi and not so much with the Russian mid-d & distance runners:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/russia-drugs-sochi-athletes-performance-2016-5%3fampThe Russian women were using turinbol as their primary androgen in conjunction with EPO use. One of the steroids in the "Duchess Cocktail," oxandrolone or Anavar, was used in some cases. For example, per the ARD-recordings, 800m specialist Savinova (Dague & London gold - 10th all time) mentions not wanting to use turinbol or testosterone because of the concerns with "growing a beard" and developing a "male voice." Her coached switched her to the less androgenic but more anabolic oxandrolone. Poistagova also said she used oxandrolone and EPO in the lead-up to the London Games.
So, from the evidence we have the doping programs used by the Russian women which is primarily a cocktail of EPO and turinbol and/or oxandrolone. Three of their top runners were not only found guilty of ABP-hematological anomalies (99.9 specificity) violations, but had a secondary violation testing positive for turinbol:
Zaripova (SC) Dague & London gold (10th all time) - ABP violation & a re-test from London positive for turinbol.
Chernova (Heptathlon) Dague gold/London bronze - ABP violation & ae-test from London for turinbol.
Abitova (10,000/marathon) EC gold & silver (40th all time) ABP violation & a re-test from Beijing for turinbol.
There doesn't seem to be any evidence of blood transfusion practices with them during that time frame per the recordings - just EPO & the steroids. In McLaren, marathoner Shobukhova mentions using transfusions around the time frame when she won 2011 Chicago running the 2nd fastest marathon ever at that time. The results were annulled for an ABP-hematological anomalies violation.
Stop providing all that data.
You are only going to use blood bags if you think they are harder to detect. EPO is a better option all around if you are not worried about testing.
Sorry physics defiant....just bored with lockdown where I live. ?
rekrunner wrote:
Another invitation -- thanks.
Thanks for the laugh. I like your British dark humour!
Let's get to the bottom of this wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
Why just "blood doping"? What about the "Duchess Cocktail", a mixture of three steroids?
The "Duchess Cocktail" (oxandrolone, methenolone, and trenbolone)was used exclusively at Sochi and not so much with the Russian mid-d & distance runners:
Exclusively? According to McClaren report, it was developed already for the London 2012 Games.
casual obsever wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
Another invitation -- thanks.
Thanks for the laugh. I like your British dark humour!
lolz...sadly he honestly thinks he WANTED and NEEDED on here hahaha what a f*cking moran.
hey gary this is how much you suck.....i will gladly take COVID 19 if you leave LR for LIFE!
ps....stable when will that list drop already? and does EPO help fight COVID 19? i mean renato said EPO helps with malaria and you know lots of kenyans ran fast times when they just got done having malaria....lolz
bannnedd i got wrote:
casual obsever wrote:
Thanks for the laugh. I like your British dark humour!
lolz...sadly he honestly thinks he WANTED and NEEDED on here hahaha what a f*cking moran.
hey gary this is how much you suck.....i will gladly take COVID 19 if you leave LR for LIFE!
ps....stable when will that list drop already? and does EPO help fight COVID 19? i mean renato said EPO helps with malaria and you know lots of kenyans ran fast times when they just got done having malaria....lolz
Your meds, Chad! Take your meds! Jesus!
Of course, we know in all this that blood doping works for Russian women but doesn't work on altitude-trained elite Africans. And nor does its replacement of EPO. No data. Different species.
The issue isn't so binary and partly depends how you define when something "works", because technically blood doping "works" also for altitude-trained men if their performance is elevated by 0.1 % more than what the could've achieved naturally. Different groups evidently get different boosts (some as low as 1 % in some distances, according to the Soviet data),and Alex Hutchinson writes in the article that
women get a bigger boost from blood transfusions than men. Though the studies don’t directly address why this happens, the key may be baseline levels of total hemoglobin, which tend to be lower in women: “The lower the initial level,” Iljukov hypothesizes, “the more you can benefit from blood doping.”
Because native high-altitude residents tend to have higher total hemoglobin in relation to body mass vs. sea level natives (not true in all cases), according to the same principle, they could and perhaps should also benefit less from blood doping.
Aragon wrote:
The issue isn't so binary and partly depends how you define when something "works", because technically blood doping "works" also for altitude-trained men if their performance is elevated by 0.1 % more than what the could've achieved naturally. Different groups evidently get different boosts (some as low as 1 % in some distances, according to the Soviet data),and Alex Hutchinson writes in the article that
women get a bigger boost from blood transfusions than men. Though the studies don’t directly address why this happens, the key may be baseline levels of total hemoglobin, which tend to be lower in women: “The lower the initial level,” Iljukov hypothesizes, “the more you can benefit from blood doping.”
Because native high-altitude residents tend to have higher total hemoglobin in relation to body mass vs. sea level natives (not true in all cases), according to the same principle, they could and perhaps should also benefit less from blood doping.
Heresy. You're saying they still benefit .
vc xc wrote:
bannnedd i got wrote:
lolz...sadly he honestly thinks he WANTED and NEEDED on here hahaha what a f*cking moran.
hey gary this is how much you suck.....i will gladly take COVID 19 if you leave LR for LIFE!
ps....stable when will that list drop already? and does EPO help fight COVID 19? i mean renato said EPO helps with malaria and you know lots of kenyans ran fast times when they just got done having malaria....lolz
Your meds, Chad! Take your meds! Jesus!
meds dont really work, its all just "beliefs" according to gary
Actually I make no such a claim because according to Iljukov's theory, technically the boost could be zero for high altitude male residents.
As it is well known by now, all the blood doping research is blood doped subjects vs. non-doped ones and not vs. altitude trained, therefore it isn't clear that at least some athletes could not get most or all of the blood doping boost with legal means.
Aragon wrote:
Actually I make no such a claim because according to Iljukov's theory, technically the boost could be zero for high altitude male residents.
As it is well known by now, all the blood doping research is blood doped subjects vs. non-doped ones and not vs. altitude trained, therefore it isn't clear that at least some athletes could not get most or all of the blood doping boost with legal means.
If that were so I would have expected times in the 70's and 80's, when altitude-training was well-established, to be at least equal to the 90's and 2000's when blood-doping and EPO were a commonplace. But we don't see that. Times continued to improve exponentially long after altitude-training became a necessary feature in the sport. Something else was adding to performance. That suggests that even altitude-trained athletes were finding ways to make significant gains. I doubt that this was simply attributable to training.
We also see that since testing improved for blood-doping and EPO in the mid-2000's that performances on the track have generally fallen away compared to the era when such doping was subject to less effective control. This relative decline is also observable amongst altitude-trained athletes. They aren't running as fast as they were in the 90's. There are some exceptions - many of them women - and they tend to be from countries with poor anti-doping control, and on the roads, with the marathon in particular. I might suggest that some of these changes might be explained by micro-dosing becoming the norm, to beat the biopassport, as was indicated by the investigation into Russian athletes.
bannnedd i got wrote:
vc xc wrote:
Your meds, Chad! Take your meds! Jesus!
meds dont really work, its all just "beliefs" according to gary
Does thermoregulation work?