Genetics or Training???

BELIEF is a big hurdle. How many white guys BELIEVE that they can't compete with Blacks in 100m?

Why exactly do the fastest animals(with one exception) on earth live in Africa? What geographical or climatic reason is there for about a dozen antelope that can absolutely fly and a cat that can catch any one of them? There are some pretty quick and enduring people there too. Why? Something there is causing the inhabitants to be a bit above the norm.

Ajuksnerrad wrote:

But if Brits (using them as a sterling example) were doing 3:29s and 13-flat in the 80s, why shouldn't Brits do 3:26 and 12:30s now? Or, more importantly, why aren't they? What factors contributed to Brit dominance, and Brit decline?

"Because they can't" is not the answer! :)

Actually I think maybe it is. Remember, when we talk about "Brit Dominance" we're speaking of basically 4 guys (give or take a few) That's it. Coe, Ovett, Cram, Moorcroft. Only Moorcroft could do 13 flat. Only Coe, Ovett and Cram could run 3:29 or close to it.

East Africa has more guys around 13 flat or faster than you can shake a stick at.

EM your an idiot wrote:

Reading that paragraph was 2 minutes of my life ill never get back.

*sneeze* *sneeze* *cough* *cough*

Oh im sorry im allergic to bullsh**

it took you 2 full minutes to read one paragraph? go back to your picture books and crayons. does your mommy know you got out of your crib?

Perhaps it is not genetics at all, but instead, some form of institutionalized racism.

On the first day of track practice in the United States, the majority of track coaches split their team into the white guys and the black guys, the distance runners and the sprinters. More often than not, this division has absolutely nothing to do with ability and everything to do with a coach's first impression of his athletes...and at larger schools, more often than not, this first impression is the color of an athlete's skin.

There aren't more black sprinters than white sprinters because black kids are genetically better sprinters, there are more black sprinters than white sprinters because young athletes are unfairly split into training groups based on race. I could give many personal examples of white kids who struggle with distance that would make excellent sprinters and vice versa. However, due to the perpetuating perception that black kids should sprint and white kids should run distance, many young athletes fall through the cracks of the American athletic system.

So how do the Kenyans and Ethiopians pick their sprinters? Based on your logic Abdi and Meb should have been placed on the sprint squad by skin colour.

Spe wrote:

On the first day of track practice in the United States, the majority of track coaches split their team into the white guys and the black guys, the distance runners and the sprinters. More often than not, this division has absolutely nothing to do with ability and everything to do with a coach's first impression of his athletes...and at larger schools, more often than not, this first impression is the color of an athlete's skin.

No it doesn't quite work like this. The majority of track coaches ask the athletes what event they want to do. They will test the athlete out at what events he wants to try.

First of all, I'm not talking internationally; I'm talking about the situation in the United States. In places like Kenya and Ethiopia there are many outside factors (read: both environment as well as social climate) beyond genetics that tend to mold excellent distance runners.

Nevertheless, Meb and Abdi do buck the trend, but I suspect with their strong sense of heritage associated with their native lands, as well as the perception of the coach that an African would succeed in distance, they were funneled into their high schools' distance programs. However, for every Meb and Abdi, there are many African immigrants that are funneled into distance running incorrectly...and I wonder if the situation in Africa is similar. Since coaches feel that Rift Valley athletes are genetically pre-disposed to running distance events, they probably push nearly all kids into distance events, inevitably allowing some superior sprinters to slip through the cracks.

Nice theory, but certainly not consistent with reality in California. Meb started running the mile in high school because middle schoolers run a mile in PE class periodically, and the PE teacher told the local high school coach how well Meb ran and the high school coach encouraged Meb to run as soon as he started high school. I can't speak from experience about Northern California, which I expect is the same, but in Southern California our public schools have become so multi-ethnic with caucasian, American black, African refugee blacks, Chinese-American, Japanese-American, Southeast Asian-American, Hispanic-American, Hispanic and others that I seriously doubt that coaches are doing racial stereotyping. The high school coaches that I have been exposed to generally hold tryouts or time trials and encourage kids toward events they show aptitude for.

Really, I would highly recomend picking up a copy of Tim Noakes book the "lore of running" to anyone with an interest in this topic. He is very objective and about this subject.

He writes that there have been few studies about the physiological differences between east africans and europeans, but there have been some.

He personally believes african athletes have a biomechanical advantage, which I happen to agree with.

He also points to one of his models of exercise performance, the pyschological/motivational model, which he says might play a role. kenyan boys must show no emotion during their teenage circumcision, or they will be shunned by their community. Kind of a similar example to Lance Armstrong. After their ordeals, the pain of training for running/cycling seems pretty low key.

I think africans as a population are more effcient runners, and therefore have greater numbers of elites. But this is only a starting point. Look also in Noakes' book where he describes the training of the kenyans leading up to a major championshipc team selection. It is BRUTAl. I don't blame Shaheen and the rest for not wanting to go through that every time they want to qualify for a championship.

All very interesting.

Guys, this is a very tired topic.

Genetics play a very big role period. Yes, there are other factors, but the MAIN people of East African heritage absolutley dominate the MENS AND WOMEN'S distance races and people of west african heritage heritage absolutley dominate the MENS AND WOMEN'S sprints (and please spare me the EXCEPTIONS in each case. No one ever said there are no exceptions, we are talking about trends) is genetics. Talk about slippery slopes and defeatist attitudes and environments and all that stuff all you want, but it is really besides the point. GENTICS ARE THE MAIN REASON.

And those talking about "no scientific evidence" for what I am stating are really rather late to the party. There have been two big results in the last few years (which weren't studied for athletic reasons) which have clearly shown two things: 1) that people whose ancestors are from different parts of the globe have clear genetic differences from each other (ie, PEOPLE FROM DIFFERENT PLACES ARE DIFFERENT....on the average), and 2) some of those differences could clearly signal genetic advantages that East Africans have for distance runnning that many other peoples might not have

STUDY 1: showed that Ethiopioan highlanders have blood oxygenated to the same level that westerners do at sea level. No people no earth have ever shown that capacity for blood oxygenation at altitude. Even other highlanders like Peruvians or Tibetans had adapted less perfect methods for dealing with the thin air, but the Ethiopians had developed an ability to extract and use the same amount of oxygen from thin air that westerners can from sea level air. If that does not strike you as a SIGNIFICANT gentic difference, and one that could CLEARLY enable someone with that capacity to have a natural affinity for distance running, than I don't why you are on these boards. ( I don't have the link, but look it up under some of key words from above)

STUDY 2: Last year scientists compared the mitochondrial DNA of people whose ancestors come from different parts of the globe. The results: people whose ancestors come from colder climates have mitochondria that is efficient at producing heat (for survival), and less efficient at producing energy. People whose ancestors come from warmer climates were the opposite: mitochondria very efficient at producing energy, but not so at producing at heat. Once again, a clear genetic difference between peoples whose ancestors come from different parts of the globe, differences that were selected for that allowed survival in different climates.

So, lets see here: East Africans have ancestors that have lived at altitude for aeons and thus have been born with (ON THE AVERAGE) a natural superhuman ability to extract oxygen from the air to their blood and live on/near the equator, obviously a warm climate which also means they naturally (ON THE AVERAGE) have mitchondria (the powerhouses/energy creators of the cell) that are very efficient at producing energy compared to many peoples of the globe. Whaddya think? Do THOSE two things sound like potential advantages for distance running?? I sure hope you said yes.

Look, no one ever said that exceptions here and there from other cultures don't have the same genetic abilities that I just mentioned above. Maybe Mottram has the same crazy ability to extact O2 from the air as the East Africans. And obviously there are peoples from warm climates other than Africa that would have the same mitochondrial advantage that they have. And sure there are OTHER genetic differnces amongst people of the globe that have not been studied and related to the ability to run. BUT......the studies I mention do prove that, again.....people are different and East Africans have been shown to have genetic advantage for distance running, and based on their mind-boggling results, those adavatages are likely only the tip of the iceberg. There are sure to be new studies proving other natural capacities that they have.

Is all that so hard to believe?? If so, for the life I can't see why.

Sir Lance-alot wrote:

Guys, this is a very tired topic.

Genetics play a very big role period. Yes, there are other factors, but the MAIN people of East African heritage absolutley dominate the MENS AND WOMEN'S distance races .

I meant to write:

"....the MAIN REASON....."

Left out the word "reason."

The Spanish !! wrote:

Three Spanish guys in the 1500m final, only one Kenyan. Oh yes and three Spanish guys in the 3000m steeplechase final as well.

I guess that the Spanish are genetically gifted as well ....

Not that I necessarily believe in "genetic" dominance, but claiming spanish men perform better than others doesn't really help the case since most spaniards and North africans are half of the other. especially in the south where it was under morrish control for 700 years...

Different populations are naturally going to evolve different genes, based on different genes being successful in different situations. If Africans had time to evolve a completely different color of skin, they're obviously going to have some biomechanical differences as well. And if genetics have no effect on running I don't see why even the best trained women can't run as fast as Bekele or a human couldn't outrun an antelope. Those may be extreme situations, but the only difference in those cases is genetics.

I'm not saying individual genetic variation, toughness, and training don't have a serious effect on running, in fact I think they have a larger impact on running than race, i'm just saying that the population you come from is a factor.

Also I don't think it's a good argument to say that Europeans and Americans don't run well because of laziness and modern day luxeries, because most runners I know don't spend all day watching TV and eating potato chips. Dedicated American runners are as dedicated to running as dedicated Ethiopians are.

I am right with you, except, of course, that early humans were africans or more precisely levant-valley-ians, but certianly more brown than white. It is us white folk who took the time to evolve a different color of skin.

A neat side bar to this is that there are areas in north eastern pakistan and Afganistan where Blue-green eyes pop up randomly...These folk have been traced back to Alexenders trip to indian on that route. Apperently the boys stopped there on the way and, well.....

Show me the study!!!

Seriously! These studies that are mentioned by Sir Lancelot and Noakes and others....are they really that conclusive? Because I've sure read A LOT of criticism about them, especially Noakes (who says, for achilles injuries, ice before, DURING, and after exercise!!!) (Sidebar: I think Lore Of Running is an absolute mess of a book...the most overrated running book ever.)

Didn't Ron Clark say something completely profound about small nations dominating distance running every generation or two? Look at distance running history. Are you absolutely sure that Ethiopia and Kenya will dominate for another 30 years? Because I have never read anything that explains why they should. Please show me these studies, Sir Lancelot.

Others laugh at me, and call me a dork for arguing about this, because "look at the results at 2005 Worlds". Sure, Ethiopia dominates 10k NOW. I accept that. But I'm talking about the bigger picture here.

Nobby said "If belief is all it takes then why are you posting crap on here instead of "believing" in yourself in Helsinki?"

Um, it takes more than belief, but belief is a fine start. However, without belief, forget it.

How about you give references for both those studies and let us read them for ourselves. Oh, and don't tell me Scientific Whatsitcalled which you browsed on a news stand somewhere... Since you're so authoritive, just give me the original references.

And (BTW) what is this crap? "...those adavatages are likely only the tip of the iceberg. There are sure to be new studies proving other natural capacities that they have." You gonna tell me they walk on water, next?

Those references... any time you like. Thanks.