Sub 2h30 Spring Marathon - The Quest For Amateur Glory Rides Again!

Tyler_Runs_Lifts wrote:

@runthenight - Great to see you pop in this thread! You have been a solid contributor in all of the others and provide such great insight into racing and training.

Are you doing the Eugene Marathon? That’s the only one I can think of that’s in the spring and how Portland would come into play. I heard great things about it and truly considered doing it this year if I could land elite status.

Would you opt for Illinois if you were in my shoes? I am so torn and looking for opinions. I want revenge on the Boston course, but I definitely don’t want to waste the shape I’m in right now.

Thanks man (I accidentally logged in again with my old account). Hoping this year I'll be healthy and contributing throughout my buildup unlike the last two threads.

No, I'm just going up to Portland Maine right before Boston. Last year I flew into Boston Friday, rented a car and took it up to Hill Farmstead and then out to Portland Maine to visit breweries and have some lobster. I've never been to this area of the county and wanted to visit some bucket list breweries. A trip back to the west is much too expensive at this point for me, plus I already paid for Boston.

As for your options it all depends on how you prefer to run. A quick search for the Illinois Marathon showed me this:

Sub 2:30: 6 people with only one between 2:25-2:30, 4 guys from 2:30-57 to 2:32:46

It won't be deep and you won't have many people running with you. At Columbus I got 6th at 2:30:25 but I had a friend in the half helping a bit too. It got pretty lonely out there and those last couple miles were tough.

I'm in the same boat as you are about Boston. I have unfinished business on that course. I completely cratered at 22 because I got cocky and skipped gu at 20. I came to a complete stop and had a 6:45 mile there. I feel like people can do well there as long as that first half is controlled and you're not like me running a 5:30 through the scream tunnel...

For comparison's sake here this is what I found for Boston:

Sub 2:30: 104 people under 2:30 with 59 guys between 2:25 to 2:30 and 14 guys between 2:29 to 2:30.

It's not a flat course but it's deep and has a great crowd that'll help. I had a nightmare situation at my elite experience at Columbus so having my own bottles is not something I'm too pumped about now (didn't see the 2nd station, bottle got stolen at the 3rd station).

As for training stuff. I'm shooting for about 70 miles this week. Build up starts pretty soon and I should be getting my training schedule from coach pretty soon.

Tyler_Runs_Lifts wrote:

@coleiolio - You know what they say, “Humidity is the poor man’s altitude” ... I wish that was true. Some of these runs are brutal, but ever since I became a full-time morning runner, it’s helped out a bit. Not much, but a bit.

I went to visit my buddy at LSU the summer of 2012 and ran a week with him out there. He just said, it's like running at altitude but with no benefit. It was awful. I struggled to run 7-7:30s out around their little lake. Came back to CA and was dropping 6:20s like nothing. It's ridiculous. Big ups to you for working through that.

beersandmiles wrote:

I'd agree for the most part with this. Consistent, quality training blocks will get your time down.

Got it, thank you both. Hope to be in here legitimately in a few years.

runnerchef wrote:

beersandmiles wrote:

I'd agree for the most part with this. Consistent, quality training blocks will get your time down.

Got it, thank you both. Hope to be in here legitimately in a few years.

I have never gone above 91 miles for my running career and I think at this point it may not happen until I can get a year of running healthy before I attempt it again. I had no coach before Boston and was just stacking miles. Here's a sense of my mileage heading into both races. I got hurt before both so it's pretty different than most. I'm a pretty firm believer in that consistency is key here.

Jan 7-Boston (April 15th)

70.1

70

80.2

80.1

90.2

90.2

65.9 (Achilles Injury a couple days before hitting 100)

11.3

46.9

10.1

38.7

17.3

43.4

19.8

Boston: 2:34:46, didn’t get the chance to even get into workouts. To be honest I’m shocked I finished.

July 1st – Columbus

66.7

83.4

85.5

76.1

69

36 (Issue with my shins/nerves around there)

33.6

25

23

28.8

38.7

39.8

44.2

61.5

37.9

59.3 (Marathon: 2:30:25) Did a bunch of workouts in this buildup. Big workout 2 weeks out was 16.32 miles, 10K warmup, 4x 1 mile on 1 mile off, cool down. (5:31, 5:29, 5:29, 5:26 on the ons. 6:31, 6:28, 6:26, 6:18 on the offs.)

Hoping the 4th time is the charm here for a safe buildup!

So many names to keep track of!

I forgot there is another Portland in the mix. The Maine one often goes overlooked, but I spent a good amount of time there in my late teens, so you'd think I remember about it.

The only thing I have paid for so far with Boston is the registration. My lodging is refundable until mid-March and I probably need to book a flight soon if I'm going that route.

I looked at the results and you're right: It might be a bit sparse out there in Illinois. One thing I did notice about Boston was that I always had someone to run with when I was keeping a good pace. And even when I struggled, someone was right there with me.

Pacing will be everything for me if I make that return trip to Boston. I need to get it through my head that I will slow down through the Newton Hills, but that's OK. That's a big reason why I want to get comfortable with my aerobic pace, which is hovering around 6:00/mile. If I can settle into that through the hills and then pick it back up soon after, I'll take it.

And when it comes to elite bottles or whatever, I'm not really sure how I would handle that. I don't have too much of a request for that stuff anyway, since I grab whatever is on the course. That sucks that someone stole your bottle and that you couldn't find the other.

I'm probably not fit enough yet to be rejoining this discussion, but I need some eyes on my training besides my own.

I mentioned in a earlier post that I only was able to run less than 10 miles per week for several weeks this December. My last 2 weeks have now been 23 and 29 miles and I'm starting to feel like I'm actually running again.

I even did a couple "workouts" this week...6x45sec at 5:00ish pace (45sec rest) on Wednesday and then 5x 26-27sec all-out hill sprints on Friday with 90sec rest. Felt very clunky for both runs, which I expect will go away in a couple weeks. Did a 9mi "long run" this morning which is my longest run since getting hurt in November (8 weeks ago)

The reason I did the hill sprints is because I want to try to adjust my running form a bit to have my glutes firing more. I apparently don't activate my glutes while running so I have some imbalances. I've been doing some strength work for glute medius almost daily, but I figured that hill sprints would kill two birds with one stone. I think that 27 seconds was too long though (6% grade). Might switch to 10 seconds and do them twice a week as more of a drill than a workout. Start at 6x10sec (full recovery) and see what happens. Then maybe after a few weeks do the same hill I did the 27sec repeats on and see if I'm any quicker.

If I had to do one regular workout (low volume) every week, while building from 30mpw to 50mpw over the next few weeks, what would you guys do? I like the idea of doing the same routine every week for a little while. 20min fartlek? progression run? 300s? tempo?

The hill sprints help a lot. Either shorten them to 20 seconds or reduce the intensity a touch. I had an issue with my hip flexors last year due to too much back kick in my stride I think. The hills help me drive the knees up more and I feel way stronger after only a couple of weeks doing them twice a week. I'd say fartlek is the most versatile and best for you now since you can just listen to your body and not overdo it in this stage. Right now is when you're most vulnerable to injury. Thank you guys for these threads they are the beat thing about LR.

First of all, I've never come close to 2:30

But a couple comments...

I was dinged up early fall after trying to stick to 2 workouts + long run schedule. So I decided to start spacing workouts a little more and focus on building mileage. I found a relaxed 30 minute tempo that I ran as a progression based on feel was a great way to build back into things. It was a workout that ended up being easier than a typical "hard workout" and I was able to work through a range of paces. The distance covered for each 30 minute tempo would increase each week at roughly the same effort, which was helpful for my confidence. And since I never got going too fast (usually would start a bit slower than marathon pace and finish close to threshold or possibly 10k pace), my legs wouldn't be beat up and I could easily build mileage each week. It worked great as a base building workout for me.

Then if you want to do some hill sprints, you could do that as a second "workout" of the week.

Also, I think your plan of 10 second hills is a good one. You don't want to be really tiring yourself out, and you want maximal muscle firing. Just remember that your body isn't used to that kind of workout, so don't overdo it.

We implemented hill sprints in our buildup last year and they helped a ton for me. We did 4x 40 seconds or 4x 60 seconds but on gradual inclines rather than a steep grade.

Typically we'd do an easy 4 mile tempo then a mile jog and hill sprints. I enjoyed it.

Build-up begins this week. This was my past week:

Monday: 10.01 miles: 6:43 average

Tuesday: 9.78 miles, 6;59 average

Wednesday: 7 miles, 7:08 average

Thursday: 8 miles, 7:26 average

Friday: 5.01 miles, 7:59 average

Saturday: 10.03 miles, 7:57 average

Sunday: 15.31 miles, 6:38 average

Total: 65 miles

A lot of easy easy running this week with one of the guys I coach. Had a great negative split on my run this weekend. I'm not liking this in between weather we have (it's cold enough to need layers but you get uncomfortable pretty quickly).

reed wrote:

runnerchef wrote:

Wow! in the 2:50 camp now and want to be a 2:33 runner - can you discuss how much MPW you ran to get the 2:50 and your progression to the 2:33?

chef - don't worry too much about what it took for somebody who once ran 2:50 to get to 2:33...unless that person was running ~2:50 for multiple marathons before making another jump. I went from 2:54 to 2:32 but my training was basically the same...I just had more years of training under my belt.

I agree with reed.

My training changed a bunch from when I ran 2:50 to when I ran 2:33, but I don't think that change was what caused the improvement.

I ran 2:50 by doing 40mpw average kind of following hadd's document but I usually got lazy and missed a day a week, and I mixed in a daniels workout every 2 weeks or so.

For the 2:33 I actually had a coach who has a canova-like approach I guess, and I averaged a bit over 50mpw I think.

The training from when I did 2:33 was probably better, having a coach and actually following a plan ad all, but I think most of it was just a natural progression from more time training, slightly higher mileage and slightly better consistency.

also should point out it was not just 6 months difference between then 2:50 and 2:33.

I ran the 2:50 in apr 2018 in Paris, then got injured, moved countries and stopped running until December, when I got tinman as a coach. We did a build up for rotterdam 2019, during which I felt fit on workouts but it didn't show during races, and I didn't PR in any distances, and ended up getting injured in the last few weeks leading up to rotterdam, and DNFd the race.

No running for a couple months after that for the knee to heal, then a couple months just running casually, and that's when I got my new coach and started training seriously again and ran the 2:33 in December in Valencia.

So I had an extra year and a half of training or so, but very very inconsistently.

@reed

Not sure when did you usually start hill workouts in the buildups, but this seems to be a pretty early stage given you are targeting a race in May and just come back to training. If it's not super intense then probably fine, otherwise might be better to ramp up mileage to a decent level before doing more intense workouts. You have enough time, no need to rush things. Starting with progression and gradually transit/add tempos seems a good idea. I might be wrong, just throw my thoughts there.

For myself, current PR is 2:34 high and goal race is Boston. Sub 2:30 is unlikely to happen this time but hope to PR. I am doing some experiments/adjustments in this buildup and will see how it goes.

Past week (13 weeks until Boston):

Mon: off

Tue: 400x10 (~1'14) + 2000x2 (6'52)

Wed: 17k easy @4'59/km

Thu: 14k easy @4'49/km

Fri: 8k tempo @~3'33/km (~5'42/mile)

Sat: 7k easy @4'50/km

Sun: steady pace 29k @4'18/km (6'55/mile)

Total: 102km (63.3m)

@hyponitchen - Nice week! It's always good to mix things up a bit. What is something you have planned that you didn't in the last training cycle?

I'm doing hill sprints at the moment not really for fitness specific to any race but for overall health and balance as an athlete.

I'm coming back from a knee injury and my volume is too low to start doing "real" workouts, so I'm using a hill near my house to work on form and to get some power into my stride. I'm definitely not ready for tempo runs or interval sessions that last more than 15min

Yesterday I did hill sprints again, but this time did 5x 10sec sprints, max effort. then did a 6th for the same length/hill I was doing them last week in 26-27sec and split 25. full recovery but only needed about 75 seconds. Focus was on running smooth with a quick knee drive. On the reps my form was the smoothest, I ran considerably faster. Splits were 11.8, 10.6, 10.3, 10.7, then 9.9. split 25.4 for the same ~140m hill that I was running 26.8-27.6 for last week. So I'm already either figuring out the correct form a bit or have just knocked off some of the rust.

I also had a setback on monday, the day after my 9mi long run. knee was just killing me. not sure if I need to just roll and stretch more after runs or if the 9 miler was just too much. took tuesday off and felt okay doing the hill sprints yesterday. the hill sprints don't bother my knee, not does running faster, so that's why I'm trying to get in some speedwork at the moment.

hynotichen, you seem like you're in a good spot to run low 2:30s with those workouts 13 weeks out. take it slow though...13 weeks is a long time and you don't need to rush.

@reed - Sounds like you're making progress!

Im going for a 2:35 this spring to get me in the Chicago AD corral. Going to start off by reading the past 4 2h30 threads then follow along here.

I came in just under 2:40 at NYC last fall off 63mpw. Going to up it to 70mpw for spring and 75mpw for fall. Follow Daniels Q2 edition 3.

@T-MAC100 - Welcome to the thread! Can't wait to see your progress!

@reed

I see, hope your knees get better (and be patient)!

Throughout last year I occassionally had minor knee uncomfort and I found that wall sit and simple butt exercises makes my knees feel much better. I am not a musclar type and my weight is toward the light end probably that's why those simple exercises help a lot in my case.

Have you tried different shoes and see if they make a difference?

Early 2019 I had pain under my left foot and it lasted almost 5 months until I switched to lower drop shoes.

For the workouts, I still have a long way to go. I can hit those times but the effort level is higher than what I would like. I will stick to tempo and 400 repeats (only 10 reps) for a few more weeks, and longer intervals will come maybe 5 weeks from now.

@Tyler_Runs_Lifts

Nothing fancy （and actually pretty basic stuffs for more experienced runners) but I guess I should start with the mistakes I made in the last buildup:

- I was doing hard intervals (1k) too early and likely people know what happened later in the buildup...

- I did not eat enough and was feeling terrible for 3 weeks when the race was 4 weeks away. A 10k easy run would make my legs feel really tired. I did a blood test and turned out really low in vitamin D, low in testostrone, and slightly low in iron.

- I was doing unnecessary doubles at ~60 miles per week. Sometimes it somehow made my legs feel better but overall not worth it.

So, what's new in 2020:

- I am doing (a little) longer easy runs, and fasted.

- Try keep 2 rest days per week (and doing a little harder in the workouts)

- 1k intervals are reserved for later half of the buildup.

- No doubles whatsoever

- Eat more -_-

I guess the real experiments are the first 2, rest are just bug fixes lol