Why all these fast Foot Locker girl times in the ‘80s and early ‘90s yet zero on the track during that period?

Track wasn't as big in the 90s. There were no big national meets. Sometimes you would get lucky and go to Penn Relays, but usually you were doing a relay and nothing individually. Julia Stamps was the best HS female runner I have ever seen. She would have destroyed the women in this decade. Crazy natural talent.

For men in NE, after indoor track, if you weren't travelling for races you really had 1 good chance to run fast outdoors as the conditions were terrible.

Seems the course may run slower now for whatever reason. Watch Reina's race there in the mid1980's on YouTube and it's obvious that the course conditions are vastly different and while the course markings may be exactly the same the conditions are not.

Balboa Park wrote:

Seems the course may run slower now for whatever reason. Watch Reina's race there in the mid1980's on YouTube and it's obvious that the course conditions are vastly different and while the course markings may be exactly the same the conditions are not.

There are a couple reasons, and the first parallels the reason why we all ran faster in the 80s than US runners do now.

Back then, you knew nothing, with no WWW or social media whatevers to follow. So you worked as hard as possible, because the other person was working hard, too, you just knew it. So you worked harder. So when racing you had no barometer or baseline to follow, you had to go all-out all the time because you didn't know who you were dealing with.

Secondly, concerning this year at FL, there was rain on the course in the days leading up to it. It softened the ground, and slowed it down.

Third, you have NXN.

So dilute the field a bit, slow down the track, and have everyone so informed that they know how little they can do to be 'fast,' and there you go.

dsk wrote:

Track wasn't as big in the 90s. There were no big national meets. Sometimes you would get lucky and go to Penn Relays, but usually you were doing a relay and nothing individually. Julia Stamps was the best HS female runner I have ever seen. She would have destroyed the women in this decade. Crazy natural talent.

For men in NE, after indoor track, if you weren't travelling for races you really had 1 good chance to run fast outdoors as the conditions were terrible.

Oh yeah? Try the Midwest states where there was no indoor track season, and also terrible weather until late-April, then 40 mph winds once it dried out. Try running fast there.

1981 - Connie Jo Robinson (Cincinnati Reading) - 16:41

Ran 9:36 track 3K in April of 1982.

For those too young to know, the 2 mile was NOT a standard part of the HS program for girls until the mid-80s in most states. It wasn't until 1984 in Ohio. The 5k was not run as part of the XC program. Even less so the opportunities for track 5K. Those were relegated to summer opportunities.

There were plenty of indoor meets taking place in the 1970s-1990s in the Midwest. Not as many as today, but I competed in 7 indoor meets in Ohio/Indiana in 1983 as a HS senior.

Melody Fairchild reminds me of Allie Ostrander. Thought she was a freshman in that video rather than a senior before it was said.

scrawnftw wrote:

Melody Fairchild reminds me of Allie Ostrander. Thought she was a freshman in that video rather than a senior before it was said.

I thought the exact same thing.

Allie may have been that size without the corresponding eating disorder, which may explain why Allie did well post HS (and not Fairchild).

I'm confused. This year's Footlocker race was the fastest girls race in Footlocker history. Three girls sub-17!

Unprecedented. Why are we saying they're slower now??

Really interesting question. Some people have proposed plausible theories, but nothing jumps out as the obviously correct explanation.

If you throw Tuohy in and Young and Sprout into Footlocker, this would have been the deepest field in history. So I have the same question as you. We are witnessing the best year of high school XC racing in history.

LSD Rules wrote:

80s mentality was high mileage. 90s started quality. By the mid 90s, XC times dropped off. Runners today know how to balance.

You couldnt be more wrong about the 80's

Predictor wrote:

If you throw Tuohy in and Young and Sprout into Footlocker, this would have been the deepest field in history. So I have the same question as you. We are witnessing the best year of high school XC racing in history.

Maybe on the girl's side, but Ritz vs Webb vs Hall might have been better on the boys side. Let's see how these guys do this spring and in college before we annount them as the better than the big 3.

Fairchild ran 9:55 on a 200 meter flat track, and she was definitely better in x-c. A set-up race outdoors with perfect conditions and I'm sure low 9:40's was a possibility.

The girls this year went out hard, and is one of the reasons why there were three sub 17's.

The guys this year did not. When Reina won, his one mile split was 4:32.

Interesting discussion even to someone who doesn't follow high school running hardly at all. I quote the post below for reasons that will become obvious. There have been a few ideas mentioned that might be relevant, the difference between popular training ideas in the '70s and '80s as compared to now not the least of them. What I feel is missing from the discussion, but confirms the original poster's observation is road times. First, notice what has happened at the very top level (international pro competition): Fairly long distance times (longer than 10km most significantly) have gotten faster while track times have stayed similar since the turn of the century era. In fact, as you get into the mid-distances, the times haven't come down all that much in a few decades - at least compared to marathon times. Nate Jenkins has commented on this and I hope this mention will drive some of you to his writings. Many suggest that this dissimilarity is partially due to the financial opportunities on the roads as compared to the track. Jenkins states - and it is difficult to argue - that effective marathon-specific training has only been understood and caught on in recent decades, and has finally been practiced in a widespread way this decade. All that having been said, teenage road times are far behind where they were 30 years ago. I refer to the Lynn Jennings post as an example, but it is not really hard to ascertain that American teens have, predictably, been getting gradually faster at events in the 1500-5000 range but have actually slowed dramatically at 10k and up since the original running boom. Look at T&F News' American High School Record list. Boys 10,000 certainly stands out; contrast with the fairly recent records of Cain's generation. It is worth noting that high mileage was normal way back when a lot of the longer records were set, and just as we see now at the pro level, marathons and road racing in general were very popular among the masses. I was trying to hit 80 a week in my mid-teens but couldn't quite - and I was one who certainly isn't mentioned in record lists. Even those who didn't run at all were fans of Shorter et al and my dad would drive either me or a bunch of us from school to races including marathons. People thought it was cool in the aftermath of US medals in '72, '76, and of course the LA Olympics. Back to the start of the thread. As was pointed out, it is indeed remarkable that as mid-D and various track times have gotten faster - just as one would expect - the effect has been less as the event gets longer. OP points out 800 to 5k as enough to notice this trend. I am pointing out that 800 to half marathon or even more so, marathon, is noticeably more dramatic. Again, just like the OP I refer to US teenagers as the international elite world shows and equally dramatic and exactly opposite trend. To reiterate, the world has gotten faster at the marathon, half, and less so, the popular track distances. American high schoolers have gotten faster at shorter track distances but not longer track, cross, and road events. Great topic. Interesting and ironic.

bromha ha wrote:

Well, back in the 70's you had Lynn Jennings running 4:38 for a full mile indoors, also 10:10 for a full 2 mile that same season, did not run any fast times outdoors that year because she decided to jump in the Boston Marathon and run 2:43 instead.

Also, Joanna Forman ran 2:04 for 800 in Mass., Darlene Beckford ran 4:41 for a full mile around the same time.

Kim Gallagher down in PA ran pretty fast for everything.

Running has more depth these days, along with more opportunities to run against the best comp. Not to mention, better tracks everywhere, better shoes/spikes etc..

Polly Plumer ran a 4:35 mile in 1982, which was the high school record for 36 years until Tuohy broke it last year.

Early april outdoor 2:05/4:40s had value in the late 90s in Wisconsin. On some days guys with 4:20 PRs would be going all out for these marks. But, we had an atypical indoor season. Collegiate tracks were something of the new minus the Shell. Whitewater hadnt gone up yet, not sure about UW Platteville or Oshkosh. But we had like about 5 or 6 indoor tracks. In parenthesis are the laps per mile. Case (10) Park (10) Bradford (10) Horlick (10) Waukesha South (10) WFB (10) 'Stallis Central (10) NB West (10?) Cudahy (11)

tarckstar wrote:

dsk wrote:

Track wasn't as big in the 90s. There were no big national meets. Sometimes you would get lucky and go to Penn Relays, but usually you were doing a relay and nothing individually. Julia Stamps was the best HS female runner I have ever seen. She would have destroyed the women in this decade. Crazy natural talent.

For men in NE, after indoor track, if you weren't travelling for races you really had 1 good chance to run fast outdoors as the conditions were terrible.

Oh yeah? Try the Midwest states where there was no indoor track season, and also terrible weather until late-April, then 40 mph winds once it dried out. Try running fast there.

Javman wrote:

There were plenty of indoor meets taking place in the 1970s-1990s in the Midwest. Not as many as today, but I competed in 7 indoor meets in Ohio/Indiana in 1983 as a HS senior.

Nebraska, one indoor HS meet, one of my years.